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Cavalry Question
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TOPIC: Cavalry Question

Re: Cavalry Question 7 months, 1 week ago #31

I just played the same scenario as Rob, LG-04 focusing on Domon's division and the French cav acted normally, giving as good as they received, in fact routing the Prussians opposing them (they outnumbered them). I am convinced that its only in sandbox play that the cav of the human player receives the one sided results. How this could be only in sandbox play is above my pay grade!

Re: Cavalry Question 7 months, 1 week ago #32

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So I finished LG-04 the eagle triumphs. I got about 2 or 3 weird cavalry results but nothing crazy. On the whole my cavalry performed very well.

On a side note is the objective way up north on the Namur road supposed to be a hold objective? Its 5000 points every 19 minutes you hold it. To me that sounds like it should be a waypoint objective like everything else in the scenario, but instead its a hold. So I finished with some insanely high score, like over 60,000 and only 19,000 is needed for a major victory, because I grabbed the Namur road at around 17:30 hours and milked like 40,000 points from it.
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months, 1 week ago #33

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Capt Saucier wrote:
I just played the same scenario as Rob, LG-04 focusing on Domon's division and the French cav acted normally, giving as good as they received, in fact routing the Prussians opposing them (they outnumbered them). I am convinced that its only in sandbox play that the cav of the human player receives the one sided results. How this could be only in sandbox play is above my pay grade!


It cant only be sandbox because all the sceenshots roy64 posted of his cavalry getting wrecked were from LG-04, which is why I played the same scenario as him. I played the entire 7 hour scenario but was unable to reproduce the French cavalry being slaughtered more than a few isolated times. Most of the time my cavalry did very well. This is really weird. Above my paygrade as well.
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months, 1 week ago #34

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DarkRob wrote:
Capt Saucier wrote:
I just played the same scenario as Rob, LG-04 focusing on Domon's division and the French cav acted normally, giving as good as they received, in fact routing the Prussians opposing them (they outnumbered them). I am convinced that its only in sandbox play that the cav of the human player receives the one sided results. How this could be only in sandbox play is above my pay grade!


It cant only be sandbox because all the sceenshots roy64 posted of his cavalry getting wrecked were from LG-04, which is why I played the same scenario as him. I played the entire 7 hour scenario but was unable to reproduce the French cavalry being slaughtered more than a few isolated times. Most of the time my cavalry did very well. This is really weird. Above my paygrade as well.


It doesn't matter whether I play sandbox,scenario or a mod I will always see odd results if there's cavalry, like you I sometimes see my French cavalry preform well, it's random.

Some of the worst incidents that I've seen have been in the 9 hour Waterloo scenario when the Prussians arrive on the field, the French Guard cavalry gets slaughtered in virtually every battle involving cavalry v cavalry combat, I've even seen Prussian infantry inflict significant casualty's while running away from charging cavalry.

Try the Carabiniers they are next to useless. Every time they suffer very heavy casualties. Chasseurs a Cheval of the Guard & the red lancers are not much better either.
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #35

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Roy, given that others can't reproduce what you are experiencing I suggest you uninstall and reinstall the game. Perhaps something in a patch didn't write correctly.
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #36

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Saddletank wrote:
Roy, given that others can't reproduce what you are experiencing I suggest you uninstall and reinstall the game. Perhaps something in a patch didn't write correctly.


Dutch101,Capt Saucier & DarkRob have all reproduced the same problem & I have reinstalled the game.
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #37

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roy64 wrote:
Saddletank wrote:
Roy, given that others can't reproduce what you are experiencing I suggest you uninstall and reinstall the game. Perhaps something in a patch didn't write correctly.


Dutch101,Capt Saucier & DarkRob have all reproduced the same problem & I have reinstalled the game.


I don't follow you, Dark Rob is not seeing the issue.
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #38

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Saddletank wrote:
roy64 wrote:
Saddletank wrote:
Roy, given that others can't reproduce what you are experiencing I suggest you uninstall and reinstall the game. Perhaps something in a patch didn't write correctly.


Dutch101,Capt Saucier & DarkRob have all reproduced the same problem & I have reinstalled the game.


I don't follow you, Dark Rob is not seeing the issue.


Dark Rob said,

"So I finished LG-04 the eagle triumphs. I got about 2 or 3 weird cavalry results but nothing crazy"

" I played the entire 7 hour scenario but was unable to reproduce the French cavalry being slaughtered more than a few isolated times. Most of the time my cavalry did very well. This is really weird. Above my paygrade as well."
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #39

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Dark Rob needs to comment here but he uses the phrase "weird results" which does not necessarily mean what you've been seeing, where units loose 100-0 or something like that. A "weird result" could be anything that's way outside an expected result.

Why do most of his combats work out historically plausible? Do yours mostly come out historically plausible and the 100-0 fights are rare? Or are all your fights 100-0 massacres?

If it only happens occasionally this could be explainable by terrain, widely different unit exhaustion levels, widely different opposing unit strengths, etc. I'm not saying I agree such results are plausible historically but they could be intended by the variables in play.
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #40

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Saddletank wrote:
Dark Rob needs to comment here but he uses the phrase "weird results" which does not necessarily mean what you've been seeing, where units loose 100-0 or something like that. A "weird result" could be anything that's way outside an expected result.

Why do most of his combats work out historically plausible? Do yours mostly come out historically plausible and the 100-0 fights are rare? Or are all your fights 100-0 massacres?

If it only happens occasionally this could be explainable by terrain, widely different unit exhaustion levels, widely different opposing unit strengths, etc. I'm not saying I agree such results are plausible historically but they could be intended by the variables in play.


If I had to make a chart out I would say this, being an army level scenario I of course delegate alot of the micromanaging of units to the AI using the commander stances. 80% of all cavalry charges were probably handled by the AI. Of those they were pretty much squadron on squadron and the casualties were comparable on both sides, with one side or the other retreating. 15% were overwhelming French victories where the charges were hand picked by me and I outnumbered the Prussians greatly.

4% were overwhelming Prussians victories in instances of counter charges that I
didn't see coming and the French cavalry got caught and wrecked. This was usually after they had already charged some other Prussian unit and were on their way back.

Only about 1% of the time did I see a fresh French cavalry unit go up a against a Prussian cavalry unit and get mauled 100-0. Enough for me to say that roy64 is not crazy and this is happening on occasion. But not enough to prevent me from scoring a major victory.(Although as I said earlier, it's a tough battle to lose with that 5000 point hold objective on the Namur road)
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #41

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roy64 wrote:
Saddletank wrote:
roy64 wrote:
Saddletank wrote:
Roy, given that others can't reproduce what you are experiencing I suggest you uninstall and reinstall the game. Perhaps something in a patch didn't write correctly.


Dutch101,Capt Saucier & DarkRob have all reproduced the same problem & I have reinstalled the game.


I don't follow you, Dark Rob is not seeing the issue.


Dark Rob said,

"So I finished LG-04 the eagle triumphs. I got about 2 or 3 weird cavalry results but nothing crazy"

" I played the entire 7 hour scenario but was unable to reproduce the French cavalry being slaughtered more than a few isolated times. Most of the time my cavalry did very well. This is really weird. Above my paygrade as well."


Hey roy64, I got a stupid question. What difficulty are you playing on? I played LG-04 on normal. But if you were playing on a higher difficulty like seasoned or veteran or something like that, those difficulties artificially inflate the Prussians strength, troop quality, fatigue, morale, aggressiveness, pretty much everything. So on very high difficulties the entire Prussian force would all be made up of soldiers from the planet Krypton.
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #42

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I'm playing custom difficulty,

AI Aggressiveness is set to 1

AI morale level is set to 0

AI regiment strength (%) is set to 110
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #43

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roy64 wrote:
I'm playing custom difficulty,

AI Aggressiveness is set to 1

AI morale level is set to 0

AI regiment strength (%) is set to 110


I mean, that's not a huge bump, but it's still a bump. That means every unit in the Prussians army has 10% more men than they should have. Plus they'll be more aggressive. And who knows if there might be any wonky AI behavior using a custom difficulty. Try it just on straight normal and see how it goes. Even on normal there were a few occasions where I saw French cavalry get wiped out when they shouldn't have. But it seemed to happen alot less for me than it did for you.
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #44

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DarkRob wrote:
roy64 wrote:
I'm playing custom difficulty,

AI Aggressiveness is set to 1

AI morale level is set to 0

AI regiment strength (%) is set to 110


I mean, that's not a huge bump, but it's still a bump. That means every unit in the Prussians army has 10% more men than they should have. Plus they'll be more aggressive. And who knows if there might be any wonky AI behavior using a custom difficulty. Try it just on straight normal and see how it goes. Even on normal there were a few occasions where I saw French cavalry get wiped out when they shouldn't have. But it seemed to happen alot less for me than it did for you.


I'll give it a try & see what happens.
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #45

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Same result

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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #46

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roy64 wrote:
Same result



That's wild. I don't know what to say. You seem to be able to produce this result almost at will and I had to play the whole 7 hour scenario just to get it to happen a few times.
If you had to guess, what percentage of all your cavalry on cavalry combat yields these kinds of results?
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #47

In the last sandbox scenario, I saved the game right before my French cavalry engaged the Prussians, then played until the French were routed. I did this 5 times and each time the result was basically the same. That is the French were decimated, almost always inflicting a maximum of 2 casualties and losing 50 to 100. I set the difficulty level to a slight French advantage. In each case the French were fresh. In one extreme case, the French not only lost 50 to 100 but a single Prussian beat 3 French units in order and also captured them.

I did not get this same result when playing the stock Ligny scenario the other day, but have seen this in the past when I first started playing the game. I thought this was fixed a while ago. I will go back and play Waterloo or Quartre Bras and see if this occurs.
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #48

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DarkRob wrote:
roy64 wrote:
Same result



That's wild. I don't know what to say. You seem to be able to produce this result almost at will and I had to play the whole 7 hour scenario just to get it to happen a few times.
If you had to guess, what percentage of all your cavalry on cavalry combat yields these kinds of results?


That's what I don't understand, I can play any sandbox,scenario or a mod & reproduce it all the time yet you can't? Percentage wise I would say it's about 30% but it really is random.

Lets say when you click on a Brigade commander & you see the casualty rates are pretty even you think everything is OK but when you check the casualty rates of each squadron then you'll find the weird cavalry results, So maybe your not noticing it because your not checking each squadron.
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #49

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roy64 wrote:
DarkRob wrote:
roy64 wrote:
Same result



That's wild. I don't know what to say. You seem to be able to produce this result almost at will and I had to play the whole 7 hour scenario just to get it to happen a few times.
If you had to guess, what percentage of all your cavalry on cavalry combat yields these kinds of results?


That's what I don't understand, I can play any sandbox,scenario or a mod & reproduce it all the time yet you can't? Percentage wise I would say it's about 30% but it really is random.

Lets say when you click on a Brigade commander & you see the casualty rates are pretty even you think everything is OK but when you check the casualty rates of each squadron then you'll find the weird cavalry results, So maybe your not noticing it because your not checking each squadron.


Nah, theres no way its happening anything remotely close to 30% of the time for me. I admit most of the time Im not checking on each individual squadron. But when I check on a commander, any commander, if they've got a negative score, Im checking all their units to see who it is that's getting the worst of it. Especially units under AI command where occasionally they will have a cavalry unit just standing to near an infantry square and getting shot to pieces but not moving away, so I have to TC them and get them out of harms way.
That kind of stuff happens, we all know the AI isn't perfect.

But in your case, I have to say honestly, I don't know whats happening. It shouldn't be anywhere near 30% of the time unless A) there is something wrong with your game, and your game only, or B ) You are badly mishandling your cavalry.

Im going to discard for now the possibility that you are badly handling cavalry because A) you don't sound like an idiot, and most people who would even play a game like this aren't idiots and would know about Napoleonic warfare, and B ) Even for arguments sake, lets say you are bad with cavalry. That still wouldn't change the fact that the last screenshot you put up was of fresh, high morale, high fatigue, level 7- veteran troops getting wrecked. Level 7- veteran is literally the highest troop quality in the game any unit can have outside of the French Imperial Guard(who are level 8-elite, and only the Imperial guard have level 8 troops)In other words, good or bad with cavalry, that still shouldn't have happened.

So Im going to go with, something is wrong with your game, or at least different from my game. Are you a big tinkerer? Like do you go into the scenario files and start messing around and changing things? Is it possible you may have changed something that inadvertently made your cavalry become far less effective? Honestly Im running out of ideas of where the problem lies and I think we are going to need some dev support on this one.

For my part I can confirm this issue does exist. It has happened to me, but nothing even close to 30% of the time. For me its like 1% to 2% of all cavalry on cavalry combat yields this kind of result.
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #50

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DarkRob wrote:
Im checking all their units to see who it is that's getting the worst of it. Especially units under AI command where occasionally they will have a cavalry unit just standing to near an infantry square and getting shot to pieces but not moving away, so I have to TC them and get them out of harms way.
That kind of stuff happens, we all know the AI isn't perfect.

Yep I always see that but that has nothing to do with what I'm & others are seeing.

DarkRob wrote:
But in your case, I have to say honestly, I don't know whats happening. It shouldn't be anywhere near 30% of the time unless A) there is something wrong with your game, and your game only, or B ) You are badly mishandling your cavalry.

Really you could say it's 100% of the time considering it will happen every game I play. The game is a steam version & it is version 101 & has been installed at least 3 times since January. All my commanders love me so I don't think it's that.

DarkRob wrote:
Im going to discard for now the possibility that you are badly handling cavalry because A) you don't sound like an idiot, and most people who would even play a game like this aren't idiots and would know about Napoleonic warfare, and B ) Even for arguments sake, lets say you are bad with cavalry. That still wouldn't change the fact that the last screenshot you put up was of fresh, high morale, high fatigue, level 7- veteran troops getting wrecked. Level 7- veteran is literally the highest troop quality in the game any unit can have outside of the French Imperial Guard(who are level 8-elite, and only the Imperial guard have level 8 troops)In other words, good or bad with cavalry, that still shouldn't have happened.

Thank you I think.

DarkRob wrote:
So Im going to go with, something is wrong with your game, or at least different from my game. Are you a big tinkerer? Like do you go into the scenario files and start messing around and changing things? Is it possible you may have changed something that inadvertently made your cavalry become far less effective?

My game is a bog standard Steam version 101, no tinkering of any files & I use a shortcut to my mods folder so I don't have to go into the main game folder at all.

DarkRob wrote:
Honestly Im running out of ideas of where the problem lies and I think we are going to need some dev support on this one.

I agree & why aren't the devs helping?

DarkRob wrote:
For my part I can confirm this issue does exist. It has happened to me, but nothing even close to 30% of the time. For me its like 1% to 2% of all cavalry on cavalry combat yields this kind of result.

Well if it's happening 1% to 2% of all cavalry on cavalry combat that is still a lot. Is it happening to you when you play a sandbox game as well as the stock scenarios? Does it happen every game you play?
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #51

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Hmm. Well one difference could be that I have the Matrix games version installed from a disk and you have the steam version. I cant see any logical reason why they would be any different, but I suppose its possible.

It would be nice if the devs chimed in, because Im out of ideas.

Ive actually never used the sandbox. 90% of the time that I play this game, Im playing KS. I only play the stock game when I play the stock scenarios, as KS can sometimes unbalance the stock scenarios.

1% to 2% may sound like a lot, but it actually isn't because I normally don't do a lot of cavalry on cavalry combat. Generally when enemy cavalry come up I form square with the infantry and then have my artillery bomb on the enemy cavalry until they run off. Then I use my cavalry to force enemy infantry into square and bomb on them with artillery. Cavalry is powerful, but fragile. Often I use them just for the threat alone, to force the enemy into square and then pound on them with line infantry and artillery.
You can play some interesting games with the proximity effects and engage distances in this game. One of the things I do is move a cavalry unit just into that perfect range where they will trigger an enemy unit to form square, then I move them out of range, then back in and back out. In doing so Im constantly making the enemy unit go back and forth between square and line so they aren't shooting at me, while Im bombing on them with artillery and line infantry the whole time. Gamey tactics to be sure, but whatever lol, Il use it.

I did a lot more cav on cav combat than I would normally ever do when I played Ligny because I was purposely trying to replicate the issues you and others have been having. So it did happen more often and more noticeably than I would ever see normally. Of the 40 or so cav on cav combats I did during Ligny I had at least 3 for sure instances of French cavalry being mauled to death when they definitely shouldn't have been. And maybe I had 2 or 3 more questionable results, where they weren't maybe the freshest of troops, but I still think they shouldn't have been mauled the way they were. The rest of the time my cavalry did quite well in cav on cav combat. They didn't win every single one, but they won more than they lost and even the ones they didn't win and retreated the casualties were at least comparable.

Im with you though. Its definitely an issue and definitely happens more than it should. Hopefully the devs fix it. In the meantime, try avoiding cav on cav combat. Use infantry squares and artillery to make enemy cavalry pay the price for coming close. Use your cavalry to force enemy infantry into square and then pound them with line infantry and artillery. Artillery at canister range does ridiculous damage, even in the stock game. You just have to protect them more because the canister range is much shorter than it is in the KS mod.

The AI is honestly terrible at using combined arms itself. So you can just rock,paper,scissors the crap out of it.
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Re: Cavalry Question 7 months ago #52

I got the matrix version of Waterloo on disk, downloaded Quartre Bras from Matrix, then got a disk for Ligny. I have not purchased Wavre yet due to the issues we have been talking about and a comment about problems with the download on the Matrix site. I am using 1.01.
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Re: Cavalry Question 1 week, 6 days ago #53

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I can't believe no one at Norb has responded to this thread, this really needs fixing. I just had a Cuirassier Divisions wiped out by a few Prussian Hussars. It totally F**ked up my game.
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Re: Cavalry Question 1 week, 5 days ago #54

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roy64 wrote:
I can't believe no one at Norb has responded to this thread, this really needs fixing. I just had a Cuirassier Divisions wiped out by a few Prussian Hussars. It totally F**ked up my game.


Sorry for you angst, wish I had a solution. A while back I did some testing in regard to these cavalry concerns. I set up sides with equal criteria across the board, experience, size of unit, fatigue, and morale. I attacked and received attacks testing offensive vs defensive advantages. Result, equal casualties across the board. At least this shows that with all things being equal cavalry engagements respond with correct results, and there's no bug at this level that I can find.

Yeah, I know this is no answer for your angst, because obviously by your reports and some others there's a glitch somewhere in the engagement criteria tables. Hopefully someone will root it out eventually, these tables are available for modding and this game as a whole is highly modifiable. As far as NSD is concerned, there are no further patches planned for this game.
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Re: Cavalry Question 1 week, 5 days ago #55

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RebBugler wrote:
roy64 wrote:
I can't believe no one at Norb has responded to this thread, this really needs fixing. I just had a Cuirassier Divisions wiped out by a few Prussian Hussars. It totally F**ked up my game.


Sorry for you angst, wish I had a solution. A while back I did some testing in regard to these cavalry concerns. I set up sides with equal criteria across the board, experience, size of unit, fatigue, and morale. I attacked and received attacks testing offensive vs defensive advantages. Result, equal casualties across the board. At least this shows that with all things being equal cavalry engagements respond with correct results, and there's no bug at this level that I can find.

Yeah, I know this is no answer for your angst, because obviously by your reports and some others there's a glitch somewhere in the engagement criteria tables. Hopefully someone will root it out eventually, these tables are available for modding and this game as a whole is highly modifiable. As far as NSD is concerned, there are no further patches planned for this game.


What a shame. Maybe they should put a little note on the sales page, Warning: Cavalry may or may not work.
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Re: Cavalry Question 1 week, 5 days ago #56

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RebBugler wrote:
roy64 wrote:
I can't believe no one at Norb has responded to this thread, this really needs fixing. I just had a Cuirassier Divisions wiped out by a few Prussian Hussars. It totally F**ked up my game.


Sorry for you angst, wish I had a solution. A while back I did some testing in regard to these cavalry concerns. I set up sides with equal criteria across the board, experience, size of unit, fatigue, and morale. I attacked and received attacks testing offensive vs defensive advantages. Result, equal casualties across the board. At least this shows that with all things being equal cavalry engagements respond with correct results, and there's no bug at this level that I can find.

Yeah, I know this is no answer for your angst, because obviously by your reports and some others there's a glitch somewhere in the engagement criteria tables. Hopefully someone will root it out eventually, these tables are available for modding and this game as a whole is highly modifiable. As far as NSD is concerned, there are no further patches planned for this game.


I to have never really been able to replicate Roy's problem. And at this point I've played and defeated every scenario in the game and consider myself an expert on the games mechanics. Once in a blue moon I've gotten wierd results with cavalry engagements, but I could say the same for infantry as well. I just chaulk it up to extreme random results that can occasionally happen with the games combat results tables, but again, these are few and far between. As far as I can determine, the game is working as intended. I'm not saying Roy is imagining it. Clearly this has been a problem for him for more than a year. I wish I had an answer for him.
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Re: Cavalry Question 1 week, 5 days ago #57

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It'a not just me who has seen this happen others have to, even you have said you have seen these results.

"Only about 1% of the time did I see a fresh French cavalry unit go up a against a Prussian cavalry unit and get mauled 100-0. Enough for me to say that roy64 is not crazy and this is happening on occasion."

Maybe it's the way we play as I always take control of everything I can as you don't. Perhaps that's why I see it more than you?
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Re: Cavalry Question 1 week, 5 days ago #58

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roy64 wrote:
It'a not just me who has seen this happen others have to, even you have said you have seen these results.

"Only about 1% of the time did I see a fresh French cavalry unit go up a against a Prussian cavalry unit and get mauled 100-0. Enough for me to say that roy64 is not crazy and this is happening on occasion."

Maybe it's the way we play as I always take control of everything I can as you don't. Perhaps that's why I see it more than you?


Right, but we're talking about matters of degree here. I don't say I've never seen a wierd result, I'm sure we all have. It's a question of degree. I don't see it anymore than I would expect to just from random chance. I've seen far more wierd results with infantry on infantry combat simply because there's alot more infantry on infantry combat in the game. Hell, I once saw an infantry battalion charge a cavalry squadron and win. But these are few and far between and the exception rather than the rule. And like I said, about what I'd like expect to see just from random chance.

This is very different from your problem. From the way you tell it, this happens constantly in your games, repeatedly, over and over. And that's what I can't replicate. It happens to you way way more than it should, and way more than it's ever happened to me.
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Re: Cavalry Question 1 week, 5 days ago #59

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roy64 wrote:

Maybe it's the way we play as I always take control of everything I can as you don't. Perhaps that's why I see it more than you?


This could be your issue if you're TC'ing level 6 (squadrons) and forcing them to engage. To force units into engagements only use attackmarch, TC'd units are mindless and highly vulnerable. The only reason I left the TC function on level 6 with the Grog Toolbar is that TC is the most effective way to get units OUT of engagements. Otherwise TC on level 6 is like a suicide button if folks don't know when and how to use it effectively.
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Re: Cavalry Question 1 week, 5 days ago #60

  • DarkRob
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RebBugler wrote:
roy64 wrote:

Maybe it's the way we play as I always take control of everything I can as you don't. Perhaps that's why I see it more than you?


This could be your issue if you're TC'ing level 6 (squadrons) and forcing them to engage. To force units into engagements only use attackmarch, TC'd units are mindless and highly vulnerable. The only reason I left the TC function on level 6 with the Grog Toolbar is that TC is the most effective way to get units OUT of engagements. Otherwise TC on level 6 is like a suicide button if folks don't know when and how to use it effectively.


I sort of agree with this, and I sort of don't. Attack March is no substitute for TC at any level,and never has been. TC is the only way to fully guarantee that your units do what you want them to do, when you want them to do it. However you are right, the real problem with TC is if you don't know what you're doing with it, then yea, it's a death sentence. In my opinion attack march is sort of halfway between AI control and TC. Your troops have a much better chance of going where you want them to than under full AI, but it's by no means the same level of guarantee that TC is.
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