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'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture
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TOPIC: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture

'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 5 months ago #1

  • RebBugler
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'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture
Update version 1.7 (February 19, 2020) - Details

Unzip and copy to the Mods folder (Unzips with 7zip, free download...)
'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture

'True Ground' revisits the Devil's Den Map, now scaled for realistic distances and real time play. Included are 22 scenarios designated for this map, they are prefixed with 'TG'. Scenarios prefixed by 'TG_B&F_' must be played with the Bugles & Flags (B&F) mod activated, prioritize True Ground below B&F. Both mods should be prioritized lower than all other mods unless otherwise noted.
To eliminate all dependence of having B&F activated rename 'STOCKgfx.csv' to 'gfx.csv' in the Logistics folder...Rename or delete the original 'gfx.csv' file. Once this is done the scenarios that begin with 'TG_B&F_' can be played without B&F activated.

Sandbox play is available by selecting the 'Devils Den - True Ground' map.

Deactivate this mod when not used as it will shrink sprites among other extreme deviations.

Previous Updates:
Update version 1.01 (December 24, 2019) - Details
Update version 1.5 (January 10, 2020) - Details

This mod has evolved through the development of the 'True LOS' and 'True Distances' mods. Its companion mod, 'True Ground SR1' - Scenarios & OOBs', is designed exclusively for play on this map.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 5 months ago #2

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"Reb" - Downloading Now!

I probably will not get a chance to view it until the weekend.

I'll also take a look at the "Devil's Den" boulders for you.

davinci
The only true logic is that, there is no true logic!
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 4 months, 4 weeks ago #3

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"Reb" - I looked at your Map and the (Boulders) situation is Not an easy fix, check the Picture below.
1_2019-09-22.jpg


The PR Engine allows for multiple settings for the boulders, such as the height, and bottom level, and the radius of said boulder.

If, I am remembering this correctly the "OnTopOf" was put in by "Norb" and not by the PR Engine.

SO, some of those boulders cannot have an "OnTopOf" setting applied to them since it was probably impossible to even climb on them in real life.

Another problem is that if the settings are not 100% it will create a sort of units standing in the air due to the radius of that boulder, like in the picture posted above.

Years ago when experimenting with a similar problem the only way that i was able to work around this problem was to place each boulder one at a time and start the game to test it. Then go back into the PR Program and add another boulder to create a sort of staircase system. Extremely Slow Process.

The "Rock-Wall" problem is caused by the "MapName.bmp" file that does not have a constant "GrayScale Color 80" applied to it. To correct that you would have to edit the MapName.bmp file.

I forgot to look at why the tree density is causing a problem, I'll Edit this post if I find out a solution to that issue.

Also - the creek level is also going to have to be lowered, since the units now walk under the water level.

Good Luck with this Project, but I feel that it is going to be a long process working around all of the Problems that this conversion is going too change.

EDIT Post: Reb - The Trees are using a Density of (240 and 120) change that to (30) for the tree settings.
A lower Number means a higher concentration of trees, so that is an easy fix.

davinci
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 4 months, 4 weeks ago #4

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If troops only fought around the lower edges of Devil’s Den an easier fix would be to remove the on top of values/add greyscale 25 so troops skirt the edges. I’ve always found guns and troops sitting directly on top of it a bit odd.

However, if historically they did, then you’re back to the drawing board. I’ll try and have a look when I have a spare moment.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 4 months, 4 weeks ago #5

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Crikey wrote:
If troops only fought around the lower edges of Devil’s Den an easier fix would be to remove the on top of values/add greyscale 25 so troops skirt the edges. I’ve always found guns and troops sitting directly on top of it a bit odd.

"Crikey" - How is everything going!

Not really disagreeing with you but I would go about this another way.

A GrayScale Color 25 - is basically a road \ path - which probably shouldn't be applied to that particular area around the boulders.

If the "Radius" is applied correctly the units will move around the boulders on their own without a road path directing them.

If some of the boulders were placed without the "OnTopOf" setting, that would \ should prevent them from climbing on top of the higher boulders. Which should solve the problem of the units standing in the air.

The lower boulders can and should have the "OnTopOf" setting applied to them which would allow the units to stand and fight without breaking into different squads.

It is just going to take quite a bit of time to get all of the boulders a "Correct Setting" which is extremely time consuming.

Strictly Guessing Here - but I would say that the only way to do it correctly would be to remove all of the boulders and to start placing them back down one at a time, while testing the results.

davinci
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 4 months, 4 weeks ago #6

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Hey D

Am ok. Hope all well with you too.

Greyscale 25 is a fall back option.

The collision radius issue with 3d objects is an ongoing challenge, which appears to be a side effect of Norb's tweaks to the PR prog and related 3D object Is files.

The use of the "on top of" interger in the Is file appears to allow the AI to recognise a collision radius, and sit on top of it. There seem to be variants of this that do not, meaning the AI merely skirts around the exact edges of the 3d object, rather than abide by the collision radius you give it.

I may be wrong, of course, but perhaps try a test - place a rock with no "on top of" interger - on a blank area of a map.

Then march your troops towards the object and watch what they do. If they skirt around it smoothly, without acting oddly, you could give the upper Devil's Den rocks those properties.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 4 months, 4 weeks ago #7

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Davinci, thanks for the help answers on Post #3, I'll be checking them out soon.

Thanks for weighing in Crikey, lots of issues to be addressed.

Following this discussion, I think road pathing around the Devil's Den boulder wall is the best solution. The collision idea whereas units go around the object won't work because it splits units up. Just like the pond problem in the QB map, the 'boulder wall' is too large leaving split units vulnerable all along the long route while moving to reunite at their destination point on the other side.

If we go the road pathing route around the obstacle, my first question is...Do the boulders that make up the present 'boulder wall' need to have their properties changed, and if so, how can the "on top of" integer be reconfigured to just a normal collision condition (like houses)?

So far I haven't found any rocks that don't have the "on top of" property setting. Surely there's a way to turn off this setting for individual rocks or their duplicates.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 4 months, 4 weeks ago #8

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Reb

I’ll experiment with some options tomorrow and report back. You can then decide what suits best.

I’ll describe the process then.

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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 4 months, 4 weeks ago #9

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Reb

I've done some initial testing of the rocks and different intergers mentioned in the ls files. In addition to "ontopof" integer there appear to be 2 other choices in terms of collisions which could be applied -

No collisions - where troops walk straight through the object and disappear (see screen)

DD2.jpg


Collisions switched on - where troops move erratically around the edge of the 3d object, rather than the collission radius set. That causes AI problems.

DD1.jpg


Neither are much help for your purposes.

Options

There are numerous 3D rocks scattered across the map which I'd be tempted to thin out/delete, as they have little use, and focus on the rock formations at Devil's Den and the opposing Round Tops.

For the former, you could manually adjust the "ontopof" collision values to be more compact in the PR prog. This would dilute some of the hovering in thin air issues. Alternatively I could try a greyscale 25 barrier to see if that stops troops moving onto the main rock formation.

Other things to consider

Height - More generally, the height of the map seems far too exagerated with the smaller sprites. You could probably halve the value used in PR to deliver a more accurate look, but this would mean resetting the 3D houses at the new height. You wouldn't need to do the fences as these align automatically with the new terrain height.

If you're doing that then I'd be tempted to swap in reshaded and retextured models to bring the 3D objects up to more modern standards, like I did in Chickamauga. I can provide those for you.

Walls - the value is at 1 which is as dense as it can currently go. One option would be to replace the current 2048 map.bmp with a 4096 by 4096 version. This would mean redoing it as the greyscale values would be corrupted by the resizing, I suspect. This can be done but it's yet more work.

Alternatively, you might place a dense line of bushes directly alongside, which might obscure some of the gaps. Not great but replacing the sprites with 3D walls would test anyone's patience.

In short, things can be done but it's a lot of work.

A shame the engine wasn't designed with more accurate ranges in mind, initially.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 4 months, 3 weeks ago #10

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Other things to consider

Height - More generally, the height of the map seems far too exagerated with the smaller sprites. You could probably halve the value used in PR to deliver a more accurate look, but this would mean resetting the 3D houses at the new height. You wouldn't need to do the fences as these align automatically with the new terrain height.

If you're doing that then I'd be tempted to swap in reshaded and retextured models to bring the 3D objects up to more modern standards, like I did in Chickamauga. I can provide those for you.


Yeah, this was the next eyesore to get to, the exaggerated landscape, especially the sunken roads. Guide me through the process of getting this done and I will be most grateful. Your upgraded objects offer would be an added plus for this mod, of course I'll need guidance here also with replacing and positioning them. I'm still very early into the map learning phase, and haven't even edited a map.bmp file yet. This has got to be next.

Other things still to discuss in your last message Crikey, hopefully we'll get around to them...Thanks for this valuable feedback!
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 4 months, 3 weeks ago #11

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Thanks Reb

Height scale - I already have a wip with lowered height scale and new ground textures. Btw - I've completely removed the stock water frames for the creeks as these are next to useless, and look odd. I've replaced with a muddy stream ground texture instead.

I'll set out how to do that in due course, for future reference.

Buildings - I haven't reset/adjusted the buildings yet as wanted to check a few things first. For example, I notice there's a farm near Plum Run/DD below the Slyder farm, which I've not seen mentioned on any historical map. See pic below. Is that right?

DD3.jpg


Again, I'll reset the buildings for you, but also tell you what to do, so you know for the future.

Updated buildings - have started, but much to do. Here's the new Slyder Farm placed on the stock map.


DD1_2019-09-25.jpg


DD2_2019-09-25.jpg



All of this will take some time as have other real life stuff going on, but will try to give you a wip asap.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 4 months, 3 weeks ago #12

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Buildings - I haven't reset/adjusted the buildings yet as wanted to check a few things first. For example, I notice there's a farm near Plum Run/DD below the Slyder farm, which I've not seen mentioned on any historical map. See pic below. Is that right?


I prefer not to mess with too much of Eric's original design, and knowing his attention to detail, odds are this farm placement is accurate. No problem with your Plum Run edits, it was historically basically dried up at the time of this battle.

Thanks for going above and beyond with this project Crikey, it definitely needed this kick-start via your expertise. Looking forward to your upgrade, as I stay busy with the GB OOB SR1 build.

BTW, since I can't touch the map while you're doing this upgrade, I did miss scaling down a couple of buildings just north of the Little Round Top.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 2 months, 1 week ago #13

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Is there any updates with this map?

Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 2 months, 1 week ago #14

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Eddy2015 wrote:
Are there any updates with this map?


An update will probably be available by Christmas, either by me or better yet, by Crikey. My update will be accompanied by the introduction of a companion mod - True Ground SR1, Scenarios & OOBs...Working on the scenarios as we speak.

Thanks for your interest, stay tuned.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 2 months, 1 week ago #15

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An update will probably be available by Christmas, either by me or better yet, by Crikey. My update will be accompanied by the introduction of a companion mod - True Ground SR1, Scenarios & OOBs...Working on the scenarios as we speak.


I am looking forward to the update that will be presented by Crikey or yourself. I appreciate that there are active people in the community that are still inclined to assembling scenarios and creating or modifying OOBs.

Thanks for your interest, stay tuned.


You are welcome and I will be awaiting the new update.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month, 3 weeks ago #16

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Update version 1.01 (December 24, 2019)

- Trees thickened as per Davinci's recommendations...Thanks D
- Map objects scaled down that were missed with the first edition
- The GFX file change (STOCKgfx to gfx) will now provide for complete 'stock play', replacing all B&F flags with the stock originals. Other B&F features in the B&F scenarios will still be present as they have been added to this mod so B&F won't have to be enabled for them to display as designed.

Looking forward to Crikey's map upgrade. In the meantime, SR1 GB OOBs and five Peach Orchard scenarios are ready for release...'True Ground SR1' Scenarios & OOBs coming REAL SOON.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month, 3 weeks ago #17

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Thank you for this Reb - Merry Christmas to you!

David(Jolly)
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month, 3 weeks ago #18

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OH MAN!
I 'get' it now after a brief look at it!

Brilliant!

David(jolly)
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month, 2 weeks ago #19

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Reb

Sorry this has taken so long, due to a combination of things. Should be done in a week or so.

I'll post a Dropbox link when done.


DD3_SR1.jpg


DD2_SR1.jpg


DD4_SR1.jpg


DD5_SR1.jpg


DD6_SR1.jpg
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month, 2 weeks ago #20

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Great hearing from ya Crikey, looking forward to your update. Screenshots are beautiful.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month, 2 weeks ago #21

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Reb - Here's the DD updated map -

Download - www.dropbox.com/s/tj46364dmwtydpm/Maps.7z?dl=0

New ground textures
Reduced map height to better refelect your reduced sprites
Changed scale and amended buildings to make shaded, like SoWWL.
Added some better textures to some buildings.

Installation

Delete the current map folder in the True Ground mod, and replace with this new one.

Suggest that other users wait until Reb updates the mod.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month, 2 weeks ago #22

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Crikey

Thanks so very much for your hard work with this map. Your contour fixes and new buildings improve the map immensely. However, I have issues with some of your texture changes. Some areas of the map wash-out, or lose their clarity, especially roads and treeless areas, and, the Devil's Den area as compared below:

View of Devil's Den from the Little Round Top - present version
ViewofDevilsDenfromtheLittleRoundTop-presentversion.jpg


View of Devil's Den from the Little Round Top - update version
ViewofDevilsDenfromtheLittleRoundTop-updateversion.jpg


I'd prefer that this map maintain more of the original look as seen in the top screenshot. Or, are these texture changes a necessity of the contour fix? Regardless, hope I didn't burn a bridge with this critique.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month, 2 weeks ago #23

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No problem. Different views.

I reduced the height and density of those boulders so that troops aren’t perched on them like a bunch of acrobats.

Of course, if you want to add them back in via Power-render, help yourself.

If you want a rocky ground texture around Devil’s Den that can be reinstated, here's a revised link -

www.dropbox.com/s/ynnzafh2y2ozu2v/Maps-Rocky.7z?dl=0

If you want all the original ground textures reinstated I can do that too.

However, whilst I'm happy to do some minor tweaks I won’t be doing major rewrites. Sorry but I just don’t have much spare time for modding right now.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month, 2 weeks ago #24

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Reb - here's a version with the original ground and rock textures reinstated.

www.dropbox.com/s/09zzudkqe612kwk/Maps-OrigText.7z?dl=0

See what you prefer. Your choice.
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month, 1 week ago #25

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Update 1.5 - Crikey's Upgrade

- Reduced map height to better reflect the reduced sprites
- Changed scale and amended buildings to make shaded, like SoWWL.
- Added some better textures to some buildings
- Several new buildings added

...and to quote Crikey:
"I reduced the height and density of those boulders so that troops aren’t perched on them like a bunch of acrobats."
This is the BIGGIE to make the Devil's Den boulder formation area playable - No more Skywalkers.

Thank you Crikey for making this map completely playable now!
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month, 1 week ago #26

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This has opened up a new dimension in gameplay - I'm loving it!
Working out strategies, planning with and around the AI is better too it seems, at least for me.

LOOKS GREAT TOO!

David(jolly)
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month ago #27

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I'm still playing the first scn - trying to figure out the 'best' strategy!
I've managed to get half the score, but only about 20 mins to get the last objective.

I've ended up a bit far away, but the lads needed a rest!
Attachments:
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month ago #28

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just a quick note - brilliant work lads! Thoroughly enjoying this new take on the classic.
Scourge of War multiplayer group
steamcommunity.com/groups/sowwaterloo
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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month ago #29

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Hey Reb,I'm new here and really to sowgb.I like the games and the mods and scenarios,b&f mod is awesome as well as true ground and your tc2m uniform mods.I'm using these together,as well as your los mod.Just downloaded true ground 1.5 today.And I seem to have some little soldiers mixed in with the normal ones both sides.i'm going to try and attach these sceenshots.It's kinda comical,but i have not seen this before.

Attachment C:\fakepath\screen0001.bmp not found

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Re: 'True Ground' - Devil's Den Map - The Big Picture 1 month ago #30

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solid shot wrote:
Hey Reb,I'm new here and really to sowgb.I like the games and the mods and scenarios,b&f mod is awesome as well as true ground and your tc2m uniform mods.I'm using these together,as well as your los mod.Just downloaded true ground 1.5 today.And I seem to have some little soldiers mixed in with the normal ones both sides.i'm going to try and attach these sceenshots.It's kinda comical,but i have not seen this before.

Attachment C:\fakepath\screen0001.bmp not found



Sounds like you haven't activated the 'TC2M SOW Infantry SR1' mod included with 'True Ground SR1'. Prioritize all related mods according to the Intro instruction with the 'TC2M SOW Infantry SR1' mod and you should be good to go.

In the future convert all screenshot attachments to JPEG (.jpg), if you want them to appear.

Thanks for the report, glad you're enjoying the mods!

...And Welcome to the Forum
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