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TOPIC: KS MOD questions

KS MOD questions 12 months ago #1

  • Chichetr
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Hey guys,

So I decided to try out KS mod and everything seems to be working fine with the mod itself. However, I'm extremely confused by how to command the men on the field. I go into the OOB and try selecting the main commander, there seem to be no options to move troops in formations at all. I go and select other minor commanders and the same thing happens. The toolbar seems very basic.

Additionally my army seems to immediately move on it's own in all different directions unknown making it extremely annoying to try and wrangle units together.


Any advice/tutorials would be great. I am a very competent corps commander and can normally move and coordinate very large bodies of men in the regular game without any issue and generally seamlessly.

Any help would be great.

Re: KS MOD questions 12 months ago #2

  • Chichetr
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Just had a fine engagement in KS for the first time. Played the Alpine map (LOVELY map) and was a Russian corps facing an equally sized French corps with two objectives.

The French ALMOST made it to the main objective before I could get there but I performed a delaying action with a brave cavalry brigade to delay the Frenchies JUST enough to allow my boys to move in and form a defensive position on the objective. Needless to say many Russian mothers are weeping at the sacrifice of their brave, brave sons.

I LOVE the command map function by the way!

I'm starting to get the hang of commands, they seem to be a simpler version for SOWWL.

I guess now my main questions are how do I globally "TC" units on a brigade/division level all at once? I would position my chaps in place but then they would wander off after I ordered them to a certain position. I would then go and one-by-one TC each regiment (a bit of a hastle).

Also, is there any way to command multiple corps in sandbox mode?


Great work here guys, really!
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Re: KS MOD questions 12 months ago #3

  • Saddletank
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Pleased to hear you are having fun. If you like the basic Alpine map you should try the Russian winter version courtesy of Crikey. It really feels like you need a scarf and gloves when playing that. Try the 1807 armies on it. The greatcoated sprites were made by Pom and they really fit the scene.

There isn't a way to TC multiple units at once unless you TC a division or brigade commander and that will usually do the trick. His subordinates remain un-TC'd but his AI stance is disabled so his formation will generally stay where you want it.

We try to encourage players to TC much less and rely on the AI's styles and stances more. We feel that the game's strengths lie here and also that too many players play this game in a micro-managed format and we feel that people are missing a lot of fun when you do that. Armies were not robots and subordinate generals would frequently interpret their seniors wishes in unexpected ways, or for unknown reasons behave even contrary to what a c-in-c may wish! You read about so many campaigns or battles lost by reason of personal friction between officers and our take on the game's AI covers these kinds of instances. A good C-in-C will keep a watchful eye and a ready reserve to counter such surprises

Yes, the interface is deliberately much simpler than the stock game. We took the toolbar back to a more basic feel that came with the game Gettysburg and with which the main mod team were all more comfortable. If you are used to the Waterloo stock version it will seem strange at first but you'll soon get the hang of it.

I think sandbox will let you have up to two corps, you need to try a few different settings. I usually play only at the division level as a subordinate to a player-led corps (in MP that is) so my use of the sandbox mode is mostly limited to game testing and such.
HITS & Couriers - a different and realistic way to play SoW MP.

Re: KS MOD questions 11 months, 4 weeks ago #4

tcofficers is a great command for TC'ing all officers of that selected unit. In fact, most of my large scenarios start with all officers already TC'd because it's just much easier to manage your troops that way.

But you can pull up the command console by pressing the ` key. The ` key is typically directly to the left of the 1 key on English keyboards.

Select the officer, pull up the command console, type tcofficers, hit enter, and presto. That officer, and all of his subordinate officers will be TC'd.
NSD Map/Scenario Lead
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Next to a lost battle, nothing is so sad as a battle that has been won. - Arthur Wellesley

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Re: KS MOD questions 11 months, 4 weeks ago #5

  • voltigeur
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tcofficers is a great command for TC'ing all officers of that selected unit.


But LP, this handy command doesn't work in MP does it?

cheers
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Re: KS MOD questions 11 months, 4 weeks ago #6

Chichetr wrote:

Also, is there any way to command multiple corps in sandbox mode?


You can play full army battles in sandbox with the "hunt them down" mode, with "attack" or "defend" you will get just one corps per side.

Re: KS MOD questions 8 months, 4 weeks ago #7

  • WAGNER JR
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Hi,

don't know if it's the good place to give you my feeling with KS mod.

This mod is wonderfull, uniforms, music, formation everything but ....

The Canister Range !!!!!! I know that's a choice to increase it compare to the stock game in order to make artillery more efficient, I know that in ks MOD THE BATTERY CANNOT CHANGE DIRECTION EASILY IN ORDER TO LET A CHANGE TO ATTACK IT BY THE SIDES.

Sorry, for me that mod is quasi perfect but I don't use it just because of the canister range that is not, and realy not realistic. Feel playing a game more than a simulation.

Hope you'll understand....

Regards
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Re: KS MOD questions 8 months, 4 weeks ago #8

  • Saddletank
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That's fine, everyone has their preferred way to play and their own view on what kind of gaming experience SoW should give them. The canister ranges and effects though in the KS Mod are much more realistic than in the stock game, as is the effect of artillery generally. A well-sited battery could dominate a certain zone of ground and frontal attacks on artillery positions could be terrible and bloody affairs. Our view is that the stock game makes artillery too weak; so weak in fact it's not worth bringing onto the battlefield.

To partly compensate for the power of guns frontally they are vulnerable to flanking moves (as they historically were) and a flank approach can be the best way to get an enemy to shift his guns elsewhere. We made them not turn because that was how batteries tended to operate. They were sited to command a certain area or interdict a certain target and individual gun commanders did not swing their pieces to shoot at whatever they wanted off to the flanks.

We also have a system where a bold advance or charge upon guns will force them to relocate rearwards as well which was a common artillery tactic.

While the KS Mod's artillery can be lethal, there are ways to counter it if you persevere with the mod. The stock game gives players a false sense of how powerful Napoleonic artillery was.
HITS & Couriers - a different and realistic way to play SoW MP.

Re: KS MOD questions 8 months, 4 weeks ago #9

  • DarkRob
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WAGNER JR wrote:
Hi,

don't know if it's the good place to give you my feeling with KS mod.

This mod is wonderfull, uniforms, music, formation everything but ....

The Canister Range !!!!!! I know that's a choice to increase it compare to the stock game in order to make artillery more efficient, I know that in ks MOD THE BATTERY CANNOT CHANGE DIRECTION EASILY IN ORDER TO LET A CHANGE TO ATTACK IT BY THE SIDES.

Sorry, for me that mod is quasi perfect but I don't use it just because of the canister range that is not, and realy not realistic. Feel playing a game more than a simulation.

Hope you'll understand....

Regards


The canister ranges in KS are ridiculous I agree. They can be edited though. My father was able to drop the canister range down to 300 yards in some of the scenarios weve played. 300 yards is still a bit far for canister, but its better than the 500 yard cruise missles KS artillery normally fires. The stock games canister is actually just as nasty as KS artillery, just at a much closer range. But when it comes to medium and long range fire, KS is way way better.

The skirmisher system KS uses also bothers me greatly. Instead of being able to split off small skirmisher groups from battalions like in the stock game, they go the Gettysburg route and essentially have skirmishers be a part of a brigade formation and have an entire battalion assume a skirmisher formation. The problem is, they are useless. They lose to everything so its better to just advance in column by division than it is to waste a battalion on the assault column or La ordre mixed formations. The skirmishers just run ahead, get mauled, fall back and you still just end up attacking in column by division anyway, just with one less battalion that got wasted on a useless skirmish formation.

They are equally useless defensively as well and probably more so. Try playing any of the Ligny scenarios as the Prussians where you have to defend the towns and youll see what I mean. It cant even be done with KS honestly because you need those small skirmisher groups to send forward to force the French to deploy farther back than they want to.

In KS's defense though, they have always maintained that KS was not really meant to be used with any of the stock game scenarios, but with their own scenarios. And in that environment I have to admit KS shines a lot brighter. The greater canister ranges become a lot less of an issue because you rarely start close to the enemy, the maps are way bigger and there is a lot more room to maneuver. KS Cavalry is also way better. They are gun killers. So artillery always has to be careful to have its flanks covered. I still say the battalion skirmish formation is virtually useless, as I said, they lose to everything. But in the KS scenarios its not that big a deal. Most of the maps are big open spaces, and there are no towns, just foundations where towns would be.
"One crowded hour of glorious life is worth an age without a name" - The Call by Thomas Mordaunt

Re: KS MOD questions 8 months, 4 weeks ago #10

  • Saddletank
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The KS canister ranges are historical. We wouldn't create a mod that has false values in it. Canister from the bigger guns such as 8pdrs, 9pdrs, 12pdrs and the Russian licorne gun-howitzers could and would reach out to 450-500 yards. Bear in mind however that at these ranges the canister is not very effective, just as the games musket fire at 150 yards is not very effective. Fire canister at half its maximum range and you will see true devastation. Do not confuse extreme ranges with effective ranges. The ranges of 200-300 yards mentioned are the really effective ranges and this is how the KS Mod plays.

Be aware also that the stock game has infantry muskets effective out to 150 yards which is too far. Musket fire was generally opened at around 100 yards with any effect at all and it was often at half that when it became devastating. SoW stock games can degenerate into long range infantry firing duels (as Gettysburg tactics did) but this is incorrect for Napoleonic warfare where a short closer range firefight followed by one side withdrawing was more common. With infantry muskets capable of 150 yards, giving your artillery a canister range of only 200 or 250 yards takes away much of artillery's short range advantage and makes it too weak vs infantry. Another reason we elected to go with longer ranges.

Artillery in the stock game is almost ineffective and it is far too easy to get a battalion to close frontally against a gun battery.

In defence of our skirmish formations I will say it is the stock skirmish formations which are useless. They are as vulnerable to musket fire as close order troops (KS skirmishers are far harder to hit and take fewer casualties) and the stock skirmishers will behave exactly as you describe if you let the AI control them - running around, getting exhausted and always moving away from approaching enemies. Their small size and dispersed nature means they can rarely put out any effective fire at all. In addition the stock game allows you to detach very large numbers of troops from all battalions, even from some units that historically had no skirmish-trained men at all. This is not an ideal solution.

However if you TC (take command) of the KS skirmishers they become truly potent. If you fight an 1806 battle you will understand one facet of how significantly more effective French tactics were vs the Prussians in their use of skirmishers - the close order Prussian infantry has no effective answer to the French open order troops. Playing with the KS Mod in periods of the wars other than 1815 can help you understand how the opponents of the French gradually changed their organisations and tactics to counter the French system.

I'd like to explain the logic of our skirmisher formations. The reason we placed a single battalion-sized unit (sometimes two; by the way, French brigades always have two skirmish-capable units) in each brigade is because we consider SoW to be a game designed to pitch corps against corps or division against division. If you were perhaps playing in a game that emphasized brigade vs brigade level combat then having skirmisher elements detachable from each battalion may be a better representation of Napoleonic tactics but since the games' primary focus is at a higher command level the multitude of small and somewhat uncontrollable skirmish units was viewed as incorrect. It sets the detail of decision making the player is faced with at the incorrect level. A game experience can degenerate into a click-fest; something we all detested. It is a similar reason why we made individual cannons not controllable in a battery - the battery is the primary and significant command level when you play at division and corps level. Thus we eliminated a tactical representation of troops irrelevant to that command level. Now the brigade is given what we designate a "skirmish capability". This can be significant if French or, say, a British light infantry brigade, or an Austrian jager brigade. Or it can be entirely insignificant or completely absent if the troops in the brigade historically had a weak skirmish ability - such as a brigade of Hanoverian militia or Russian musketeers. The stock game cannot do this. The skirmish unit attached to the brigade represents the converged flank companies of that brigade and is sized in proportion to the total brigade strength. The brigade commander is them assumed to operate all his skirmish companies in the one significant area of his brigade frontage where they are most needed. This allows the AI brigade to function in a reasonable and effective manner in terms of skirmishing - something the stock game cannot do.
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Re: KS MOD questions 8 months, 4 weeks ago #11

  • DarkRob
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Saddletank wrote:
The KS canister ranges are historical. We wouldn't create a mod that has false values in it. Canister from the bigger guns such as 8pdrs, 9pdrs, 12pdrs and the Russian licorne gun-howitzers could and would reach out to 450-500 yards. Bear in mind however that at these ranges the canister is not very effective, just as the games musket fire at 150 yards is not very effective. Fire canister at half its maximum range and you will see true devastation. Do not confuse extreme ranges with effective ranges. The ranges of 200-300 yards mentioned are the really effective ranges and this is how the KS Mod plays.

Be aware also that the stock game has infantry muskets effective out to 150 yards which is too far. Musket fire was generally opened at around 100 yards with any effect at all and it was often at half that when it became devastating. SoW stock games can degenerate into long range infantry firing duels (as Gettysburg tactics did) but this is incorrect for Napoleonic warfare where a short closer range firefight followed by one side withdrawing was more common. With infantry muskets capable of 150 yards, giving your artillery a canister range of only 200 or 250 yards takes away much of artillery's short range advantage and makes it too weak vs infantry. Another reason we elected to go with longer ranges.

Artillery in the stock game is almost ineffective and it is far too easy to get a battalion to close frontally against a gun battery.

In defence of our skirmish formations I will say it is the stock skirmish formations which are useless. They are as vulnerable to musket fire as close order troops (KS skirmishers are far harder to hit and take fewer casualties) and the stock skirmishers will behave exactly as you describe if you let the AI control them - running around, getting exhausted and always moving away from approaching enemies. Their small size and dispersed nature means they can rarely put out any effective fire at all. In addition the stock game allows you to detach very large numbers of troops from all battalions, even from some units that historically had no skirmish-trained men at all. This is not an ideal solution.

However if you TC (take command) of the KS skirmishers they become truly potent. If you fight an 1806 battle you will understand one facet of how significantly more effective French tactics were vs the Prussians in their use of skirmishers - the close order Prussian infantry has no effective answer to the French open order troops. Playing with the KS Mod in periods of the wars other than 1815 can help you understand how the opponents of the French gradually changed their organisations and tactics to counter the French system.

I'd like to explain the logic of our skirmisher formations. The reason we placed a single battalion-sized unit (sometimes two; by the way, French brigades always have two skirmish-capable units) in each brigade is because we consider SoW to be a game designed to pitch corps against corps or division against division. If you were perhaps playing in a game that emphasized brigade vs brigade level combat then having skirmisher elements detachable from each battalion may be a better representation of Napoleonic tactics but since the games' primary focus is at a higher command level the multitude of small and somewhat uncontrollable skirmish units was viewed as incorrect. It sets the detail of decision making the player is faced with at the incorrect level. A game experience can degenerate into a click-fest; something we all detested. It is a similar reason why we made individual cannons not controllable in a battery - the battery is the primary and significant command level when you play at division and corps level. Thus we eliminated a tactical representation of troops irrelevant to that command level. Now the brigade is given what we designate a "skirmish capability". This can be significant if French or, say, a British light infantry brigade, or an Austrian jager brigade. Or it can be entirely insignificant or completely absent if the troops in the brigade historically had a weak skirmish ability - such as a brigade of Hanoverian militia or Russian musketeers. The stock game cannot do this. The skirmish unit attached to the brigade represents the converged flank companies of that brigade and is sized in proportion to the total brigade strength. The brigade commander is them assumed to operate all his skirmish companies in the one significant area of his brigade frontage where they are most needed. This allows the AI brigade to function in a reasonable and effective manner in terms of skirmishing - something the stock game cannot do.


I suspect much of our difference in opinion has to do with an extreme difference in play style. You seem to prefer letting the AI handle as much as possible, while I find the AI to be extremely poor whether it be the stock game or the KS mod. I always end up taking command of nearly everything on the battlefield down to at least the brigade level because the AI cannot be trusted to ever do anything even remotely logical to me. In my experience well placed and TC'd stock skirmishers are far more effective than KS skirmishers and it is they and not the KS skirmishers who are harder to hit and take less casualties. Im not disagreeing with your ideas behind the design, only that in my experience it doesn't play out like that. KS skirmishers trying to screen the advance of their brigade more often than not get mangled by close order infantry lines. You're saying its exactly the opposite but that hasn't been my experience. They do somewhat better when I take charge of them but that really doesn't prove anything to me because everything in the game does better when I take charge of it.
The AI is just clueless in my opinion. Ive seen it march a battalion up to get slaughtered while the rest of the brigade stands there and does nothing, sometimes even about facing and facing its back to the enemy. It routinely marches artillery around limbering and unlimbering at random while never firing a shot and seemingly moving around with no other purpose but to exhaust the gunners. Brigades wander off from their divisions and do their own thing. Cavalry move forward, not charge, stand there and get mauled and then run away, shot to pieces. Yes Ive seen the AI do some incredible stuff. Il trust the AI to move a division or corps along a road, or deploy in a neat line, but il handle the fighting. That may not be historical, but it gives me a much better chance of winning, which after all is the goal of playing any game, to win.

EDIT: Just to clarify, im not hating on the KS mod. In many ways it is superior to the stock game. While we may disagree on the power level of canister, its medium and long range fire blows away the stock artillery. Its toolbar is a lot less intrusive and has some features that neither the stock or grog toolbars have. I love hearing la victoire est a nous when I go into an attack formation. KS Cavalry is leaps and bounds better than the stock game etc etc. Theres a lot I like about the KS mod, theres just some things I like better about the stock game. Which version I use largely depends on what type of scenario Im playing. Il use whichever version I feel better enables me to win.
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Re: KS MOD questions 8 months, 4 weeks ago #12

  • Saddletank
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Thanks for your input. Your views are not uncommon and many gamers like to exercise control, its natural after all but you should give the AI more credit. I think SoW's AI is among the best written for a retail RTS and in our games we sometimes play a player team co-op vs the AI and the AI has been known to beat us. Its not as bad as you make out.

Remember that in war many illogical and downright stupid decisions get made by low-level commanders. They think they are doing the right thing but their corps commander (the player) disagrees.

Its easy to imagine the charge of the light brigade in the Crimean War being the decision of an SoW AI brigade commander.

Sometimes increased confusion and reduced levels of control can produce a more fun experience. Its a nice buzz to come out on top despite having some subordinates who act contrary to how you want.

If you are seeing KS skirmishers beaten by any close order infantry, we'd like to see a save game of that as we spent hours testing the skirmisher aspect of the mod to make them potent and in our experience a skirmish unit will always defeat a close order battalion, unless the strengths and qualities are very significantly different. This may have been what you experienced - a 200 man skirmish unit is not going to do much harm to an 800 man battalion in line. A Spanish guerilla band is not going to win a firefight against a battalion of French Old Guard to give an extreme example.
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Re: KS MOD questions 2 months, 3 weeks ago #13

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The KS Mod is going through constant changes and improvements. The KS Group plays MP about 4 times a week and with continuous feedback we're always making adjustments.

The latest version is now available at the link below (you need to log into the Kriegspiel forums to use d/l links).

The most recent updates cover:

Linear tactical brigade formations for 1806 Prussians and 1806-1807 Russians

An improved AI.dll that makes the AI more effective and gives cavalry charges both more sustained punch and better determines the direction of charge. No longer should cavalry wheel 90deg and go off after a lesser target than the player intends, unless LoS to target considerations prevent the cavalry seeing its target. Cavalry now has a greater tendency to pursue a fleeing enemy rather than breaking off a chase and sitting dazed behind enemy lines.

The AI will now use more of its resources in a corps-level battle in sandbox mode (several lines of broken and unused code have been identified and fixed).

Foot artillery is now unwilling to unlimber close to the enemy but horse artillery can do so, making this arm of service more flexible and historical.

Infantry in squares commanded by AI will no act aggressively against player commanded cavalry - no more pinning down an entire AI division with 1 cavalry squadron.

AI combined arms tactics much improved. The AI can now out-general a player in the rock-paper-scissors game.

Cossacks (other than the Guard Cossack Regt) have been downgraded to behave less like battle cavalry and more like irregulars. They have a new irregular combat formation based on our infantry skirmish formation.

Several maps added and improved.

Updated 1815 OOBs to better reflect British infantry fire discipline and steadiness.

Download link.
HITS & Couriers - a different and realistic way to play SoW MP.
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Re: KS MOD questions 2 months, 3 weeks ago #14

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Saddletank wrote:
The KS Mod is going through constant changes and improvements. The KS Group plays MP about 4 times a week and with continuous feedback we're always making adjustments.

The latest version is now available at the link below (you need to log into the Kriegspiel forums to use d/l links).

The most recent updates cover:

Linear tactical brigade formations for 1806 Prussians and 1806-1807 Russians

An improved AI.dll that makes the AI more effective and gives cavalry charges both more sustained punch and better determines the direction of charge. No longer should cavalry wheel 90deg and go off after a lesser target than the player intends, unless LoS to target considerations prevent the cavalry seeing its target. Cavalry now has a greater tendency to pursue a fleeing enemy rather than breaking off a chase and sitting dazed behind enemy lines.

The AI will now use more of its resources in a corps-level battle in sandbox mode (several lines of broken and unused code have been identified and fixed).

Foot artillery is now unwilling to unlimber close to the enemy but horse artillery can do so, making this arm of service more flexible and historical.

Infantry in squares commanded by AI will no act aggressively against player commanded cavalry - no more pinning down an entire AI division with 1 cavalry squadron.

AI combined arms tactics much improved. The AI can now out-general a player in the rock-paper-scissors game.

Cossacks (other than the Guard Cossack Regt) have been downgraded to behave less like battle cavalry and more like irregulars. They have a new irregular combat formation based on our infantry skirmish formation.

Several maps added and improved.

Updated 1815 OOBs to better reflect British infantry fire discipline and steadiness.

Download link.


Hey Saddletank, I have a couple of questions.

When you say "Foot artillery is now unwilling to unlimber close to the enemy but horse artillery can do so, making this arm of service more flexible and historical." What is meant by the word "close"? I know artillery will never unlimber within range of small arms fire, but how far out does foot artillery have to be now to safely unlimber? And how much closer can I get with horse artillery vs foot artillery?

Also you say "AI combined arms tactics much improved. The AI can now out-general a player in the rock-paper-scissors game."
Here my question is one of context, because I know most of you KS guys are die hard HITS players and fans of letting the AI control most of the combat, while Im much more of a hands on player and I TC alot.
So when you say the AI can out general a player in the combined arms game do you mean the AI can outgeneral player units under AI control, or can it outgeneral actual units under player control in the combined arms game.
I will say I have never been out generaled in the rock paper scissors game when Im paying attention to the situation and the units are TC'd under my direct control. If the KS AI can now do that, I will be seriously, majorly impressed.
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Re: KS MOD questions 2 months, 3 weeks ago #15

  • Saddletank
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Hi Rob.

Thank you for your questions.

"Close" is anything under about ~500 yards. That is, within what's generally considered maximum canister range. With repeated attention to the battery commanders TC status and refreshed orders to deploy you can slowly override this tendency. You might see a battery partially in action at the desired location but some gun teams hanging back. This limitation was not applied to horse artillery so it will still deploy in the zones it could before, that is anything outside musket range, although supporting your guns with other troops will help 'encourage' them to unlimber.

If you do not TC a battery commander, he'll withdraw to try and find an optimum location outside of the ~500 yards danger zone. This can take a long time though so its best to either TC him and try to repeatedly order him to go where you want, or resist the urge to take foot artillery closer than medium range.

The R-P-S improvement is unrelated to AI control or a TC'd unit. I TC my units a lot, probably more than most of the KS group guys. What the AI will do now is lay down an artillery barrage from long/medium range and send in an infantry attack but keep its cavalry right behind the infantry assault to force the defender to form squares. The squares are now given the highest priority by artillery and so get pounded first. If you take your infantry out of squares the AI cavalry will pounce. This'll happen if your squares unform from AI or TC player control. I've been smashed a few times recently by an enemy cavalry charge in this way.

The counter to this is to use combined arms against the AI, as should be done - support your infantry with cavalry and guns. We made this change maybe six weeks ago in our testing version of the mod so we're still evaluating but so far the results were promising enough to release the update. We always appreciate feedback if you see anything you think isn't right.

Finally be always aware that if its a sandbox scenario with an AI attacker and an objective, the AI will still just move from its start points to the objective. If the terrain isn't suitable on that axis of advance, the AI won't deviate and find a better approach route - it will still just attack over poor ground, and if this gives its artillery no useful supporting positions, or its through a forest where cavalry is (in the KS Mod) useless, an AI attack can still be quite easily halted. However if the sandbox scenario is set up using the KS Scenario Generator and the scenario designer is careful about the ground, or by chance in a vanilla sandbox game the AI gets to attack you over ground favourable to them, it can be real hellish.

We have found lines of code in the .dll file that were broken. It seems that pressure of time on NSD to get the game released for the 200 anniversary meant that mistakes were made or ideas that started to get implemented could not be finished. Unravelling and activating this code and adding new code has allowed us to make the game feel very different to the original. I know I was scathing of the vanilla game when it was released and harked back to the simpler Gettysburg game with its easy interface, but now our group has had chance to really develop the AI.dll file I'm aware how powerful a game SoW:WL really is.

Do you play with couriers? The AI will lose some advantage if you don't since a "TC-player" can't instantly order any battalion into square the moment he sees it threatened. Playing HITS also helps to minimize player advantage since FoW is at its greatest. If a player uses helicopter view and no couriers I should imagine the AI is still quite easy to beat.

I don't know if MP play interests you, but you're very welcome to join our games if the time zone thing allows. We play Friday-Monday-Wednesday at 20:00 GMT (currently 19:00 BST) and at 21:00 GMT/20:00 BST on Sundays. There's a link to our Teamspeak server in the link to the d/l post I gave above. Our games last up to 3 hours and we do not use any voice comms at all in-game except to resolve technical issues, all tactical comms goes via couriers. Our HITS camera height is 10yds and we ask that you keep trees always turned on and the radar turned off. Players are free to let the AI of their subordinate brigades or units do as much or as little as they like - as I said above I TC quite a lot of the time when I think it helps. I accept that our playing style is not to everyone's taste but then we are under the umbrella of the Kriegspiel Society which only plays games with extreme FoW.
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Re: KS MOD questions 2 months, 3 weeks ago #16

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Saddletank wrote:
Hi Rob.

Thank you for your questions.

"Close" is anything under about ~500 yards. That is, within what's generally considered maximum canister range. With repeated attention to the battery commanders TC status and refreshed orders to deploy you can slowly override this tendency. You might see a battery partially in action at the desired location but some gun teams hanging back. This limitation was not applied to horse artillery so it will still deploy in the zones it could before, that is anything outside musket range, although supporting your guns with other troops will help 'encourage' them to unlimber.

If you do not TC a battery commander, he'll withdraw to try and find an optimum location outside of the ~500 yards danger zone. This can take a long time though so its best to either TC him and try to repeatedly order him to go where you want, or resist the urge to take foot artillery closer than medium range.

The R-P-S improvement is unrelated to AI control or a TC'd unit. I TC my units a lot, probably more than most of the KS group guys. What the AI will do now is lay down an artillery barrage from long/medium range and send in an infantry attack but keep its cavalry right behind the infantry assault to force the defender to form squares. The squares are now given the highest priority by artillery and so get pounded first. If you take your infantry out of squares the AI cavalry will pounce. This'll happen if your squares unform from AI or TC player control. I've been smashed a few times recently by an enemy cavalry charge in this way.

The counter to this is to use combined arms against the AI, as should be done - support your infantry with cavalry and guns. We made this change maybe six weeks ago in our testing version of the mod so we're still evaluating but so far the results were promising enough to release the update. We always appreciate feedback if you see anything you think isn't right.

Finally be always aware that if its a sandbox scenario with an AI attacker and an objective, the AI will still just move from its start points to the objective. If the terrain isn't suitable on that axis of advance, the AI won't deviate and find a better approach route - it will still just attack over poor ground, and if this gives its artillery no useful supporting positions, or its through a forest where cavalry is (in the KS Mod) useless, an AI attack can still be quite easily halted. However if the sandbox scenario is set up using the KS Scenario Generator and the scenario designer is careful about the ground, or by chance in a vanilla sandbox game the AI gets to attack you over ground favourable to them, it can be real hellish.

We have found lines of code in the .dll file that were broken. It seems that pressure of time on NSD to get the game released for the 200 anniversary meant that mistakes were made or ideas that started to get implemented could not be finished. Unravelling and activating this code and adding new code has allowed us to make the game feel very different to the original. I know I was scathing of the vanilla game when it was released and harked back to the simpler Gettysburg game with its easy interface, but now our group has had chance to really develop the AI.dll file I'm aware how powerful a game SoW:WL really is.

Do you play with couriers? The AI will lose some advantage if you don't since a "TC-player" can't instantly order any battalion into square the moment he sees it threatened. Playing HITS also helps to minimize player advantage since FoW is at its greatest. If a player uses helicopter view and no couriers I should imagine the AI is still quite easy to beat.

I don't know if MP play interests you, but you're very welcome to join our games if the time zone thing allows. We play Friday-Monday-Wednesday at 20:00 GMT (currently 19:00 BST) and at 21:00 GMT/20:00 BST on Sundays. There's a link to our Teamspeak server in the link to the d/l post I gave above. Our games last up to 3 hours and we do not use any voice comms at all in-game except to resolve technical issues, all tactical comms goes via couriers. Our HITS camera height is 10yds and we ask that you keep trees always turned on and the radar turned off. Players are free to let the AI of their subordinate brigades or units do as much or as little as they like - as I said above I TC quite a lot of the time when I think it helps. I accept that our playing style is not to everyone's taste but then we are under the umbrella of the Kriegspiel Society which only plays games with extreme FoW.


Hi Saddletank, thanks for the thorough explanation. 500 yards or so sounds pretty good to me. Especially since in most of the KS scenarios Ive played artillery is attached at the divisional level. One can hardly imagine to many instances of a division commander marching his division willy nilly to within a few hundred yards of an already deployed enemy and calmly deploying his entire division into a neat battle formation under heavy artillery fire. Probably smarter to deploy further back.

The way you describe the improvments to the AI combined arms tactics sounds like a huge leap in the AI's ability to use the three different arms in a more cohesive way where each arm supports all the other arms and work together. I cant wait to check it out.

As far as multiplayer goes, the time difference is an issue during the week because Im still at work when you guys have already started playing. Sundays I could do, but in all honesty, with the conditions you guys play under I would be a liability in your games. I would be that kid back in grade school who was always last to be picked for the kickball game because he sucked lol.
I mean I don't suck at the game, far from it, but I do have very little experience when it comes to playing HITS, and even less when it comes to using the courier system. I usually play without couriers and with the helicopter views. I know that's not really how the KS mod was meant to be used, but honestly I think it still works just fine under those conditions. I agree about the trees though. Even playing with helicopter view I never turn off the trees. That's just something you shouldn't even be able to do in game.
Im not sure what you mean by "radar". Do you mean enemy units within visual range being shown on the command map? or is there some other "radar" feature that Im not aware of?

The few times I have tried HITS it was in the stock game, with small brigade scenarios I was already very familiar with and had beaten many times already. And even then I found the hits aspect frustrating to deal with. I kept wanting to move my camera up to get a better view and of course I couldn't so controlling my troops was a lot harder. I know that's the point and is part of the added realism, but what can I say, Im a child of the 21st century, and in the 21st century we have helicopters.

The courier system Ive never even really played with at all. I took one look at it and it looked very complicated, with all the different orders,info,support etc etc. And you have to choose them in a certain order to get your troops to respond right. It all seemed very complicated to me. And I found later on as I got better using the AI that I could accomplish most of what I wanted to get out of the AI just by using the commander stances(all out attack, attack, probe, defend, hold etc etc) In fact I ended up liking the commander stances so much that I just never bothered going back to try and learn how to actually write orders out.
"One crowded hour of glorious life is worth an age without a name" - The Call by Thomas Mordaunt

Re: KS MOD questions 2 months, 3 weeks ago #17

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Don't be intimidated by HITS play. You would be very welcome to just command at whatever level you felt comfortable which at first would be a smallish brigade - say 4 to 5 battalions. Your concerns as a brigade commander would be purely local and you could even TC every battalion.

Our next game is in about 90 minutes from the time of this post

The courier system can be used in all its complexity to talk to your sub-units and tell them where to go, etc but you can also use it the way I do - which is to ignore it! All we guys mostly do is use it as a realistic time-delay in getting orders to our units, so as a division commander I simply click on the 3D map or click on the command map and tell my subordinates to go here, take up this formation and march by road and the game just sends the courier sprites off, then my division begins to respond after they arrive. Its very cool.

Using free text for messages between players and sent by courier sprites in MP is really fun and maybe the icing on the cake. As far as I'm aware the MP courier system is unique to the SoW franchise, no other game has ever done anything like it and its great fun because if you want to you can write messages in flowery period language and role play.

With HITS if you are a corps commander and the other players on your team are your subordinate division commanders you can't be everywhere at once so need to send them couriers asking them to send you progress reports and you often face situations where you have to commit reserves based on partial information. The tension is like no other game I've played and its so much more immersive than any SP game of WL. I am surprised more people don't play SoW MP with couriers. The game would be so much better in MP/HITS/Couriers even without any mods.

The "radar" is on the first page of the Options screens on the lower right where it says "Display Target List". Make sure this is unchecked to disable what we consider unreasonably accurate information (the list will show the nearest enemy even if they're the other side of a mountain). Its possible to argue that this represents subordinates sending you information they've discovered from their own scouts but the problem is it arrives instantly regardless of how far your unit is away and the info can reach you even if enemy units intervene to isolate you from your units. I'm surprised NSD included such a feature, it doesn't seem to fit the game's style IMHO.
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Re: KS MOD questions 2 months, 3 weeks ago #18

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Saddletank wrote:
Don't be intimidated by HITS play. You would be very welcome to just command at whatever level you felt comfortable which at first would be a smallish brigade - say 4 to 5 battalions. Your concerns as a brigade commander would be purely local and you could even TC every battalion.

Our next game is in about 90 minutes from the time of this post

The courier system can be used in all its complexity to talk to your sub-units and tell them where to go, etc but you can also use it the way I do - which is to ignore it! All we guys mostly do is use it as a realistic time-delay in getting orders to our units, so as a division commander I simply click on the 3D map or click on the command map and tell my subordinates to go here, take up this formation and march by road and the game just sends the courier sprites off, then my division begins to respond after they arrive. Its very cool.

Using free text for messages between players and sent by courier sprites in MP is really fun and maybe the icing on the cake. As far as I'm aware the MP courier system is unique to the SoW franchise, no other game has ever done anything like it and its great fun because if you want to you can write messages in flowery period language and role play.

With HITS if you are a corps commander and the other players on your team are your subordinate division commanders you can't be everywhere at once so need to send them couriers asking them to send you progress reports and you often face situations where you have to commit reserves based on partial information. The tension is like no other game I've played and its so much more immersive than any SP game of WL. I am surprised more people don't play SoW MP with couriers. The game would be so much better in MP/HITS/Couriers even without any mods.

The "radar" is on the first page of the Options screens on the lower right where it says "Display Target List". Make sure this is unchecked to disable what we consider unreasonably accurate information (the list will show the nearest enemy even if they're the other side of a mountain). Its possible to argue that this represents subordinates sending you information they've discovered from their own scouts but the problem is it arrives instantly regardless of how far your unit is away and the info can reach you even if enemy units intervene to isolate you from your units. I'm surprised NSD included such a feature, it doesn't seem to fit the game's style IMHO.


Well, I cant do it today as I have run out in a few minutes to run some errands and I wont be back for awhile. Plus I haven't even downloaded the new KS mod yet, Im still running the previous one. Do you guys usually play every Sunday? Maybe I could try next Sunday? That would also give me time to download the new KS and give me a chance to get a bit of HITS practice before then.

Its not so much that Im intimidated by HITS play per se. But in an actual game situation where other players(my superior officers) are counting on me to do what they need me to do. I wouldn't want to mess up and suck and let you guys down just because Im new to playing under HITS/couriers conditions. But maybe if I get some practice on my own beforehand I might at least get some proficiency with handling a brigade from the saddle. In the few instances Ive tried it before, as I said, I found it frustrating, but not impossible as it is still just a couple of infantry battalions we're talking about.

Ahh the display target list. Not I know what you're talking about. Yea sometimes I use it, sometimes I don't. But Ive never really felt dependent on it, so Id have no problem playing without it.

What about the minimap? What do you guys set it on? All within 1000? All within 750? Bare map?
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Re: KS MOD questions 2 months, 3 weeks ago #19

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We play with a bare map, not even your own units showing. we try to play at the maximum FoW level the game allows, plus our mod removes even more information such a any data on enemy units you click on.

Really, don't worry about letting others down. No-one gets worked up about losing, we play in a very open and light hearted manner and no-one gets upset about anything. I think most of us are retired or semi-retired so we've all beentheredonethat and are playing to relax and enjoy the company of others, not to win.

Yes, we'll be playing next Sunday as far as I know. I see no reason why we wouldn't
HITS & Couriers - a different and realistic way to play SoW MP.
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Re: KS MOD questions 2 months, 3 weeks ago #20

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Saddletank wrote:
We play with a bare map, not even your own units showing. we try to play at the maximum FoW level the game allows, plus our mod removes even more information such a any data on enemy units you click on.

Really, don't worry about letting others down. No-one gets worked up about losing, we play in a very open and light hearted manner and no-one gets upset about anything. I think most of us are retired or semi-retired so we've all beentheredonethat and are playing to relax and enjoy the company of others, not to win.

Yes, we'll be playing next Sunday as far as I know. I see no reason why we wouldn't


Ok, I will give it a try next Sunday. I can see the appeal of it, especially being more about the immersive experience of it all and less about winning and losing. I might suck at first, but I also like to think Im a quick learner, so hopefully Il get better over time. I do have a good grasp of the games mechanics(pay no attention to my posts in this thread from months ago. I was still new to KS back then and had no idea what I was talking about, and just about everything I said is wrong and I cringe reading those posts now lol)and I understand the KS toolbar very well.(infact I love it, especially the formations like L'ordre mixed and assault column) Its just playing from the saddle and couriers that will be new to me.
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Re: KS MOD questions 2 months, 3 weeks ago #21

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It will be great to see you.
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Re: KS MOD questions 2 months, 3 weeks ago #22

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I have been reading through the SDK Editor manual to check what might be new - it would be helpful by the way if changes were marked.

It reminded me of a question i have about the KS mod - my understanding is that you cannot have a modified munitions file in multi-player but surely KS Mod does have both because that is what changes artillery ranges so how does that work?

Regards

Mike

Re: KS MOD questions 2 months, 3 weeks ago #23

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A modified munitions.csv is fine in MP.

Artillery ranges are modified in artillery.csv as well.
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Re: KS MOD questions 2 months, 3 weeks ago #24

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Section 2.3.5 of the editor manual says you cannot have munitions.csv file in multiplayer.

Regards

Mike

Re: KS MOD questions 2 months, 3 weeks ago #25

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That's incorrect. The KS Mod includes one.

We've been playing MP games with it four times a week for 18 months.
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Re: KS MOD questions 1 month, 1 week ago #26

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With the release of the new SDK we've begun editing some maps. Our group often ports Gettysburg maps over to SoW:WL to play MP games on but of course the American fences and buildings look out of place. We've begun to edit the maps to remove the American themed items (fences, buildings, vegetation) and replace them with more suitable European versions.

Here's the east Cavalry Field map reworked to look Spanish (or Portuguese).

This will be released with the next version of the KS Mod but PLAYERS WILL NEED TO OWN GETTYSBURG TO PLAY THIS MAP since it is only available if you buy SoW:Gettysburg. For GB owners instructions of how to copy GB maps over will be included in the next mod release.

Other maps we are reworking are community (free) maps and won't have this restriction.

www.atomic-album.co.uk/showPic.php/22426/SpainECF001.jpg

www.atomic-album.com/showPic.php/22426/SpainECF002.jpg

www.atomic-album.co.uk/showPic.php/22426/SpainECF034.jpg

www.atomic-album.co.uk/showPic.php/22426/SpainECF039.jpg

www.atomic-album.co.uk/showPic.php/22426/SpainECF040.jpg
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Re: KS MOD questions 1 month, 1 week ago #27

  • Martin James
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Well done. This is a move in the right direction.

Martin (J)

Re: KS MOD questions 4 weeks, 1 day ago #28

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Now working on modifying the Gettysburg PPT map to represent part of Portugal:

s1133.photobucket.com/user/Saddle-tank/slideshow/SoW%20-%20Waterloo/PPT%20-%20Portugal
HITS & Couriers - a different and realistic way to play SoW MP.
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