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True LOS - Realistic Battle Distances

11 months 1 week ago - 10 months 4 weeks ago #1 by RebBugler

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  • True LOS - Realistic Battle Distances
    Version 1.1

    Update 1.1, August 11, 2019, fixes some formation errors More Info

    True LOS (Line of Sight) expands 4 to 1 scaled distances to real distances, in proportion to troop sprites and map objects.

    All execution distances are affected:

    Engagement - musket and artillery ranges, canister implementation distance
    Auto Charge - minimum distance from enemy before charge triggers
    Auto Retreat - minimum distance from approaching enemy before artillery automatically retreats*
    Retreat - distance units retreat
    Withdraw - distance units withdraw
    Objective Activation Radius

    Improved AI Response - AI has more time to react since enemy is further away when receiving AI LOS tactical response data.

    In Modifications prioritize "True LOS" in the lowest position. Exceptions are mods with Unitglobal or Drills files. These files must be modified, run and walk speeds in Unitglobal, row and column distances (halved) with custom formations in Drills, to conform with "True LOS" data, and, their mods positioned below "True LOS".

    The Bugles & Flags mod is compatible with "True LOS", its custom formations having been included and edited. Prioritize B&F above "True LOS".
    ATTENTION...folks not using Bugles & Flags MUST rename or delete the 'gui' file located in the Logistics folder of "True LOS".

    Unzip and copy to the Mods folder:

    File Attachment:

    File Name: TrueLOS-Re...nces.zip
    File Size:81 KB


    Performance Note
    Since LOS distances are increased expect more demand on computer performance. To offset this demand and establish better FPS rates adjust 'Max Terrain Draw Distance' to a lower level in 'Options', page 2.

    Determining True Distance

    Realistic distances were made possible by adjusting the 'UnitPerYard' setting in the Map.ini files (51 map .ini files included, all I could find for now). The original number of '=30' was adjusted to '=62' by the following procedures:
    1) the game was started and two infantry opposing units were set so that their engagement range was 100 yards
    2) screenshot - center camera between both units wide enough to include the flags of both engaged units
    3) open screenshot in Paint.net (or any graphics program that displays pixel measurements)
    4) measure the height of an infantry sprite in one of the engaged units
    5) measure the distance between engaged units' flags
    6) divide height of infantry sprite in half (this establishes how many pixels per yard, figuring sprite height at 6 feet, or two yards), after dividing that number, now representing 1 yard, divide it into the distance between engaged units
    7) the goal then (by tweaking the 'UnitPerYard' number) is to get that last divided number (now representing yards) as close to 100 as possible (I went with 90 considering the average height of men of that era was quite a bit under 6 feet - The average man during the American Civil War was around 5'6" or 5'7", according to Wiki)
    These seven steps result in a fairly accurate map distance of 100 yards in proportion to the size of troop sprites and map objects; end result setting for the map.ini file: UnitPerYard=62.

    Determining Marching (walk) Speed for True Distances

    As noted by a recent post by MarkT, for centuries the accepted normal speed of marching infantry is three miles per hour. The following steps established this ‘walk’ speed:
    1) edited a ‘move forward’ command on the B&F toolbar to 880 yards (1/2 mile)
    2) opened the game and used this command to move 1/2 mile (Kansas map, no movement impediments)
    3) based on the 3 miles per hour speed, it takes 10 minutes to walk 1/2 mile, the officer’s journey was timed as so, tweaking the walk speed until the 1/2 mile destination was reached in 10 minutes
    4) walk speed was established at 3 using this process
    5) all other walk and run speeds in the unitglobal file were based on this established walk speed

    The Eureka Moment and Formation Adjustments

    This mod evolved from another quest: Finding a path to real distance readouts, primarily, engagement distances, to enable SR1 (1:1 sprite ratio) play that displayed accurate (true) distances. Previous mods that lengthened engagement distances were a bust as far as I was concerned because they only addressed that one fix, all other distance data being ignored, thus inaccurate.

    The Eureka Moment came as I discovered 'UnitPerYard=30', and changed it to 'UnitPerYard=90', with Immediate results - ranges were greatly increased, but way too far. Followed up by changing it to 'UnitPerYard=60' and tweaked it from there as discussed above.

    However, formations were distorted due to the increased ranges. Fortunately they were fixed by simply reducing all row and column distances by half (multiplying by 0.5). I say simply, but still a long and tedious process since all the individually altered sprite locations within each formation had to be adjusted also. The main row and column adjustments were relatively fast by applying the 0.5 formula to the row and column width columns of the Drills file.

    Maps

    As mentioned earlier there are 51 modded map.ini files included with this mod. I tried to include every map available for this game. For new maps or maps I missed folks can mod them themselves and include them in this mod in the Maps folder. In these cases please notify through this thread and they’ll be included in a future update.
    Note: In the Sandbox map selection window you’ll see two map names of each map when this mod is enabled. Select either map for play, I’ve found no issues by selecting either. Please report any anomalies otherwise.


    *Auto Retreat - minimum distance from approaching enemy before artillery automatically retreats

    This should address an artillery ‘vulnerability to capture’ issue, making artillery more difficult to capture. The original release of this game allowed artillery to go into retreat mode while limbering, this also made artillery difficult to capture. However, after realistic considerations and negative feedback thereof, an official patch changed this so artillery could be captured while limbering. While making the MP gamers happy, this change made enemy AI artillery easy fodder for capture with SP play, obviously weakening AI effectiveness. Now, with this mod enabled, the longer distances should provide for more escape time for the AI’s artillery, thus making the AI more competitive for SP play.

    Conclusion

    The short engagement distances have always bugged me. Having been in marching bands and being a marching band director for much of my life I knew that the engagement distance wasn’t even close to the length of a football field and a half plus 10 yds. (160 yards), it looked closer to a third of that. I realize that the game engine was scaled for SR4 play, but that scaling method consequently messed up historic realism placing troops too close during engagements causing an abundance of melees, bunching up of engaged units and the overlapping of line formations. This mod fixes many of these non-historic occurrences along with other distance associated issues, and above all, gives the game, and player, a more historic perspective of how 19th Century battles were actually fought.

    Although initially an SR1 quest, I feel this mod could easily replace how folks play SOWGB. Regardless, it’ll at lease demonstrate historic 19th Century warfare more accurately…Or, that’s at least its designed purpose.

    Now I’ve gotta learn how to build or adapt maps for SR1 play so historic battlefields and battles can be depicted even more realistically, at least up to Division level considering performance limitations of this game engine. This mod appears to open the final door to such future pursuits…

    And yes, of course, a Waterloo version of this mod will be in the works soon. :)

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    __________________________________
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    John Bonin "2nd Texas Infantry" (1977 - 2012)
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    Last edit: 10 months 4 weeks ago by RebBugler.
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    11 months 1 week ago #2 by Davinci

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  • RebBugler wrote: Now I’ve gotta learn how to build or adapt maps for SR1 play so historic battlefields and battles can be depicted even more realistically, at least up to Division level considering performance limitations of this game engine.

    Interesting "Reb"

    My solution have always been to increase the musket ranges for all of the units to start firing at a greater range from each other.

    I think that I messed around with those figures once and it caused all of My formations to bunch up, quickly abandoned that decision.

    Question - Why would you have to alter the existing maps in order for this to work, wouldn't that require a major-undertaking on your part?

    Either way, interesting idea!

    davinci

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    11 months 1 week ago #3 by RebBugler

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  • Davinci wrote:

    RebBugler wrote: Now I’ve gotta learn how to build or adapt maps for SR1 play so historic battlefields and battles can be depicted even more realistically, at least up to Division level considering performance limitations of this game engine.

    Interesting "Reb"

    My solution have always been to increase the musket ranges for all of the units to start firing at a greater range from each other.

    I think that I messed around with those figures once and it caused all of My formations to bunch up, quickly abandoned that decision.

    Question - Why would you have to alter the existing maps in order for this to work, wouldn't that require a major-undertaking on your part?

    Either way, interesting idea!

    davinci


    Yeah, if you lower the number of 'UnitPerYard=30' not only will the formations bunch up but the engagement distance will be shorter...A mod I don't think anyone would be interested in. Fortunately I raised the number so saw its potential immediately. Then it was just a matter of tweaking and testing to get it right for historical engagement distances.

    Concerning your "alter the existing maps" question, I'm following the most recent 'map making' thread and its making a lot of sense. Expect me to join in with my own questions. I think taking existing 2.5 maps and enlarging them for SR1 play will be a good start for learning how the 'map making' process works.

    Thanks in advance for any help along the way!

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    11 months 1 week ago #4 by Marching Thru Georgia

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  • Interesting idea but doesn't this also shrink the size of the map? A 5 mile map is now 2.5 miles in size since the number of pixels/yd. has doubled.
    Wouldn't it be better to shrink the sprites instead? Currently they are 12 feet tall. So halving the size values in the gfx file would make them 6 feet tall. That would make the enemy look smaller at 100 yd.

    I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.
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    11 months 1 week ago - 11 months 1 week ago #5 by RebBugler

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  • Marching Thru Georgia wrote: Interesting idea but doesn't this also shrink the size of the map? A 5 mile map is now 2.5 miles in size since the number of pixels/yd. has doubled.
    Wouldn't it be better to shrink the sprites instead? Currently they are 12 feet tall. So halving the size values in the gfx file would make them 6 feet tall. That would make the enemy look smaller at 100 yd.


    Hey Kevin, great to hear from you, it's been a long time since we've communicated...

    Frankly, I didn't know what that function of the map.ini file did. I just tweaked it upwards and it provided for longer engagement distances, along with all other distance related functions. So far by my play testing it's worked perfectly for these purposes, the only drawback being a performance hit, which can be nullified by selecting a lower 'Max Distance' option.

    I tried the smaller sprite scaling idea years ago with TC2M and ran into a lot of issues I couldn't figure out how to fix. Since I know more about how things work now maybe I could fix those issues but it would also still require the scaling down of all map objects. Since I am a map know-how ignoramus scaling down map objects is beyond my expertise. So presently I just do what I can do, or stumble on something successfully. This mod is of the "stumble on something successfully" variety.

    Your suggestion would probably be the best alternative in the long run and would undoubtedly solve the performance hit, however, it would take a lot more work, and especially, expertise. In the meantime, this mod works as advertised, as uncomplicated as it is, and provides for 'historic distances' gameplay.

    If you have the time give it a run and shoot back an honest opinion.

    As always, thanks for the feedback :)

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    Last edit: 11 months 1 week ago by RebBugler.

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    11 months 1 week ago #6 by Marching Thru Georgia

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  • I suppose you could reduce the movement speeds by half to make the maps "seem" like they are still their original size.

    As far as the map objects go, the buildings are already too small for the 12 foot giants. Smaller figures would actually help here, I think. The vegetation sizes could easily be reduced where needed, just like the sprites.

    I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.
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    11 months 1 week ago - 11 months 1 week ago #7 by Davinci

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  • RebBugler wrote: I tried the smaller sprite scaling idea years ago with TC2M and ran into a lot of issues I couldn't figure out how to fix. Since I know more about how things work now maybe I could fix those issues but it would also still require the scaling down of all map objects.

    Yes, I think that every single Modder has tried the Smaller Sprite at one time or another over the past ten plus years.

    The biggest problem that I remember was that even with the smaller sprites, the game would still read 40yds as if the sprites were the default value.

    But, if "You" have actually changed the "LOS" and the units are no longer reading those default values the smaller sprites would work!

    The Structures would probably be the easiest part of Converting the Map, the fences on the other hand would be a real pain, since there would be twice as many of them.

    Marching Thru Georgia wrote: As far as the map objects go, the buildings are already too small for the 12 foot giants. Smaller figures would actually help here, I think. The vegetation sizes could easily be reduced where needed, just like the sprites.

    The vegetation would also be a Major hit on the FPS - since it will change the "Density" too twice the default values.
    The woods would also have to be doubled, but the impact might not be as great since the trees can have under-growth applied to them to sort of fill in the gaps.

    This will probably keep "Reb" busy for quite a while!

    davinci

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    Last edit: 11 months 1 week ago by Davinci.
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    11 months 1 week ago - 11 months 1 week ago #8 by RebBugler

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  • Marching Thru Georgia wrote: I suppose you could reduce the movement speeds by half to make the maps "seem" like they are still their original size.

    As far as the map objects go, the buildings are already too small for the 12 foot giants. Smaller figures would actually help here, I think. The vegetation sizes could easily be reduced where needed, just like the sprites.


    Thanks for the quick response :)

    I did some more tests comparing the sprite heights with map objects (especially the heights of doorways in houses) and the distance between map objects, while turning this mod off and on...I see no differences. Your statement earlier that the map.ini change shrinks the map size by half just doesn't compute by my observations. If that's the case why aren't the sprites and map objects twice as large when this mod is enabled? The map.ini change only affects scripted distances, row and column distances in formations, engagement distances, etc., as far as I can tell.

    You're rarely wrong when it comes to stuff like this but I'm still declaring this mod "as advertised". Still, I'll keep testing, maybe different map sizes are producing different results.

    Regardless, Much Appreciated!

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    Last edit: 11 months 1 week ago by RebBugler.

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    11 months 1 week ago #9 by RebBugler

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  • Davinci

    Thanks for the feedback! :)

    You're perfectly right, making the sprites smaller to address engagement distances and such is not a simple solution as it opens up a myriad of map changes that must be be addressed. Better just starting from scratch.

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    11 months 1 week ago #10 by Davinci

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  • OK, Simple Test - from a Saved Game!

    Default 30 - Units can't see each other at the distance that they are from each other.

    Changed 60 - Enemy Units appeared on Map and started engaging each other.

    Changed 30 - Units can't see each other, again!

    I didn't change any other values, ( 60 ) didn't mess up the formations, only caused them to spread out farther apart. Now a Regiment, Brigade takes up more space.

    First Conclusion - Completely Confused, here!

    It appears that a higher number brings the units closer together, Not farther apart!

    Need A Lot More Testing, too fully understand this!

    davinci

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    11 months 1 week ago #11 by RebBugler

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  • It appears that a higher number brings the units closer together, Not farther apart!


    Nope, not for me, that's why I had to reduce row and column distances by half. At 60 units are spread 2x.

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    11 months 1 week ago - 11 months 1 week ago #12 by Davinci

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  • RebBugler wrote: Nope, not for me, that's why I had to reduce row and column distances by half. At 60 units are spread 2x.

    I have provided a Picture of what I am seeing, but I still need to test this some more.

    This is from a Saved Game - by changing the value from 30 to 60 - multiple times, same results.

    The value 30 - enemy units don't appear on map.

    The value 60 - enemy units do appear on map.


    I probably will not get the time to test this until the weekend, but it "Appears" that the value will have to be lower than the default value, say ( 15 ) to achieve the correct results. This sort of appears that "We" are giving the game a bigger footprint, when it should be a smaller one.

    But, I could be Wrong!

    davinci

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    11 months 1 week ago #13 by RebBugler

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  • Hey Davinci

    With 60 yds the LOS is longer, so that example makes sense. Or I should say, the LOS reading is the same, but the distance is longer, just like engagement ranges with this mod.

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    11 months 1 week ago #14 by Davinci

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  • RebBugler wrote: With 60 yds the LOS is longer, so that example makes sense. Or I should say, the LOS reading is the same, but the distance is longer, just like engagement ranges with this mod.

    OK, So this setting does Not change the positions of the units Flag-bearer - Only spreads out the units in the formation.

    To compensate for that you then "Rearrange" the formations ( Drills ) to bring the units back closer together.

    So the viewing distance is increased but the units footprint is the same as it was with the default settings, once you adjust the drills file.

    So, in "Theory" the size of the Maps wouldn't have to be adjusted, nor would the size of the units since the only thing that has changed is the viewing distance.

    Now, considering that the Artillery has a greater-LOS than the Infantry, this might cause a problem if there is a lot of artillery on the field.

    If, I am understanding this correctly.

    davinci

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    11 months 1 week ago #15 by Marching Thru Georgia

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  • Your statement earlier that the map.ini change shrinks the map size by half just doesn't compute by my observations. If that's the case why aren't the sprites and map objects twice as large when this mod is enabled? The map.ini change only affects scripted distances, row and column distances in formations, engagement distances, etc., as far as I can tell.

    Everything placed on the map, buildings, vegetation, units, etc. use pixel values for their positions, not yards. When you change the value of UnitPerYard, you change how many pixels equals one yard. The number of pixels on the map stays the same, you are not changing that. You are changing the number of pixels in a unit of distance. So now the distance in yards between, say, Gettysburg and LRT is half the distance in the original game. It also means that units will seemingly cross the map twice as fast as before. It will take a unit half the time to move between G'burg and LRT with your mod than the original game. That's because speeds are given in mph, or 1760 yards per hour.

    The biggest problem that I remember was that even with the smaller sprites, the game would still read 40yds as if the sprites were the default value.

    I'm not sure I understand this. Making the sprites smaller is just a way to make them look like what you'd expect them to look like when they are 100 yd. apart. Right now they look too big because they are 12 feet high. It won't affect engagement ranges. It should affect the bunching up and overlap that has always plagued the game. This would just makes the units occupy half the space they used to. You mod just increases the number of pixels between units. It's the same thing since the game uses yards for spacing and moving units around.

    It appears that a higher number brings the units closer together, Not farther apart!

    No, Reb is right. See my explanation above. With the mod, you can see twice as far as before because there are now twice as many pixels in a yard. So things that are invisible in the original game because they are too far away are now in plain sight with the mod.

    I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.
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    11 months 1 week ago - 11 months 1 week ago #16 by RebBugler

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  • Davinci wrote:

    RebBugler wrote: With 60 yds the LOS is longer, so that example makes sense. Or I should say, the LOS reading is the same, but the distance is longer, just like engagement ranges with this mod.

    OK, So this setting does Not change the positions of the units Flag-bearer - Only spreads out the units in the formation.

    To compensate for that you then "Rearrange" the formations ( Drills ) to bring the units back closer together.

    So the viewing distance is increased but the units footprint is the same as it was with the default settings, once you adjust the drills file.

    So, in "Theory" the size of the Maps wouldn't have to be adjusted, nor would the size of the units since the only thing that has changed is the viewing distance.

    Now, considering that the Artillery has a greater-LOS than the Infantry, this might cause a problem if there is a lot of artillery on the field.

    If, I am understanding this correctly.

    davinci


    Yeah, you're getting it now. Now, with the last post by Kevin I get it now too. Following up your "in Theory" statement, with this mod the map doesn't need adjustments because this mod just establishes true LOS distances, it doesn't address true map distances. For SR1 play the map distances would have to be adjusted to "true" also, that is, being enlarged, keeping the sprites and the map objects scaling as is.

    Note, my quote above is wrong. With Kevin's enlightenment we, or at least I, know that that number should read 60 pixels, not 60 yards.

    Concerning artillery, its LOS or engaged range is greater than infantry regardless. It's just that with this mod it is more lethal at greater map distances. I'm guessing that's what you meant. :)

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    Last edit: 11 months 1 week ago by RebBugler.
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    11 months 1 week ago #17 by Davinci

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  • Yeah, I had to abandon this idea, even if I do find it interesting!

    I have always played this Game at extremely low "FPS" and have grew to accept them as normal.

    It has never really bothered Me playing like that since it was well.....Normal!

    But, changing the ( 30 ) too ( 60 ) has caused My Computer to freeze up multiple times, and in ten plus years of Playing, that has never happened.

    Have to give "Norb" credit, his game just doesn't Crash unless the Player makes it Crash, it didn't really crash, just freezes up for about ten plus seconds before resuming .

    It might have something to do with playing on a 12 Mile Map, thousands upon thousands of fences, 100,000 plus men in each Army, etc...

    I think that that was just the tipping point, when too much becomes a little bit too much!

    Either Way, Continue On, as for Me, going back to the old way of 5 FPS and Happy!

    davinci

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    11 months 1 week ago - 11 months 1 week ago #18 by RebBugler

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  • Davinci wrote: Yeah, I had to abandon this idea, even if I do find it interesting!

    I have always played this Game at extremely low "FPS" and have grew to accept them as normal.

    It has never really bothered Me playing like that since it was well.....Normal!

    But, changing the ( 30 ) too ( 60 ) has caused My Computer to freeze up multiple times, and in ten plus years of Playing, that has never happened.

    Have to give "Norb" credit, his game just doesn't Crash unless the Player makes it Crash, it didn't really crash, just freezes up for about ten plus seconds before resuming .

    It might have something to do with playing on a 12 Mile Map, thousands upon thousands of fences, 100,000 plus men in each Army, etc...

    I think that that was just the tipping point, when too much becomes a little bit too much!

    Either Way, Continue On, as for Me, going back to the old way of 5 FPS and Happy!

    davinci


    Yeah, Norb balked at allowing modifications like this to protect his 'crash free game coder' reputation. Still, myself, especially myself, and other team members were able to convince Norb to allow potential game destabilizing modifications for the sake of the game's longevity potential. The more the merrier has worked fine for this game as far as I'm concerned. It's just like capitalism: if the product or service doesn't work, the company goes bankrupt; if a mod crashes the game, folks don't use it. A negative connotation doesn't reflect upon the game or designers' reputation, just the guilty modder's.

    Too bad you can't run this mod, I think you would enjoy the true distances, they would be especially advantageous for your BIG army gameplay settings. Have you tried adjusting 'Max Terrain Draw Distance' to a lower level in 'Options', page 2? So you can at least maintain your 5 FPS ( :woohoo: YIKES :woohoo: ) rate, that makes you happy. :lol:

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    11 months 1 week ago #19 by Davinci

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  • RebBugler wrote: Too bad you can't run this mod, I think you would enjoy the true distances, they would be especially advantageous for your BIG army gameplay settings. Have you tried adjusting 'Max Terrain Draw Distance' to a lower level in 'Options', page 2? So you can at least maintain your 5 FPS ( :woohoo: YIKES :woohoo: ) rate, that makes you happy. :lol:

    I think that basically we are doing the same thing only using different settings to achieve roughly the same results.

    I only Play the "Open Play" game, and have designed it to always have at least a six to ten mile battle-line.

    So, all muskets start firing at 500yds to give the "AI" the time to start forming their battle-line, and spread out either left or right of the fighting.

    It works out fairly well considering that I have removed all running, all melee, and all of the Cavalry from the game.

    So, both sides can maintain a solid battle-line for 12 plus hours, after that I sort of get bored with that particular fight and start another game.

    I have actually never Won a single battle considering that the AI has roughly 40,000 more men, and Infantry to Infantry fighting makes it all but impossible to destroy a larger force.

    System : I-7 3770, Windows 7 Pro - Geforce 720 , 20 GB Ram - System is a bit to Old to push any Game.

    Question - So does One Pixel equal One Yard?

    I thought that in the old days of TC2M - One man was three feet wide and one man stood for 1 yard of distance, so each man represented 10 men, so is that where the ( 30 ) originated from?

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    11 months 1 week ago - 11 months 1 week ago #20 by RebBugler

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  • Marching Thru Georgia wrote:

    Your statement earlier that the map.ini change shrinks the map size by half just doesn't compute by my observations. If that's the case why aren't the sprites and map objects twice as large when this mod is enabled? The map.ini change only affects scripted distances, row and column distances in formations, engagement distances, etc., as far as I can tell.

    Everything placed on the map, buildings, vegetation, units, etc. use pixel values for their positions, not yards. When you change the value of UnitPerYard, you change how many pixels equals one yard. The number of pixels on the map stays the same, you are not changing that. You are changing the number of pixels in a unit of distance. So now the distance in yards between, say, Gettysburg and LRT is half the distance in the original game. It also means that units will seemingly cross the map twice as fast as before. It will take a unit half the time to move between G'burg and LRT with your mod than the original game. That's because speeds are given in mph, or 1760 yards per hour.


    Alright MTG, thanks to you not only do I know what this mod does, I know NOW how it does it! :lol:

    I'm pretty sure I've got the 'Walk' speed set correctly for true distances at 3 miles per hour, as explained in the first post. I know that this is not adjusted for our present historically based maps that are scaled for SOW play, because that's not the purpose of this mod. This mod is about true battle distances, not true battleground distances. IOW, if the walk speeds are adjusted to the scaled battlefield distances, they won't comply with true battle distances. Only when new maps enlarged to true scale proportionate to sprite and map objects will a 'True Battlefield' emerge using this mod's criteria, with command hierarchy beginning at the company level, and every soldier represented.

    Or, as you suggested, the other option for a 'True Battlefield', scale down the sprites and map objects, and redesign the present maps as discussed, i.e., narrower roads, additional fencing and wall segments, etc., not a small task.

    Much Appreciated Discussion, you seem to always bail me out with stuff like this...Mr Enlightenment I dub you :lol:

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    11 months 1 week ago - 11 months 1 week ago #21 by Marching Thru Georgia

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  • Thanks for the kind words.

    I'm pretty sure I've got the 'Walk' speed set correctly for true distances at 3 miles per hour, as explained in the first post.

    That's something else I don't understand. Measuring the map size by using marching speed doesn't make a lot of sense. If you do so, then you have to say the map is a 2 hour map or whatever. All you are measuring by walking speed is how long it takes a unit to march over hills, through stream valleys, through woods, etc. in a certain amount of time. That is completely dependent on the terrain features and does not measure distance. It measures time for one particular path across the map.

    I thought that in the old days of TC2M - One man was three feet wide and one man stood for 1 yard of distance, so each man represented 10 men, so is that where the ( 30 ) originated from?

    NSD wanted its regiment line to represent the average length of ground a real regiment occupied. So they enlarged the sprites such that an average regiment had the correct length. Hence the sprites are 12 feet high.
    To find out why the number of pixels/yd. is 30, just a little arithmetic is needed. A SOWGB 2.5 mi. map is 130752 pixels on a side. So 130752 / 2.5 = 52301 pixels / mi. There are 1760 yd. per mi., so 52301 / 1760 = 29.7 or 30 pixels/yd. For 5 mi. maps, (261824 pixels) you end up with 29.75 or once again 30 pixels/yd.
    Reb's mod cuts the size of the maps in half, in effect bringing the geographical items closer together, (in terms of yd. apart), but making the units look like they are farther apart, (pixels apart).

    I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.
    Last edit: 11 months 1 week ago by Marching Thru Georgia.
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    11 months 1 week ago #22 by Davinci

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  • Marching Thru Georgia wrote: To find out why the number of pixels/yd. is 30, just a little arithmetic is needed. A SOWGB 2.5 mi. map is 130752 pixels on a side. So 130752 / 2.5 = 52301 pixels / mi. There are 1760 yd. per mi., so 52301 / 1760 = 29.7 or 30 pixels/yd. For 5 mi. maps, (261824 pixels) you end up with 29.75 or once again 30 pixels/yd.
    Reb's mod cuts the size of the maps in half, in effect bringing the geographical items closer together, (in terms of yd. apart), but making the units look like they are farther apart, (pixels apart).

    Thanks, You explained that in a way that I could actually understand!

    Math is Not my strong point!

    So, a "Single" man would occupy a single pixel standing up, and if it were laid down it would only occupy two pixels in length, correct?

    If that's True, it would be fairly simple to place several miles of pixels on a Map to test the walking speed for the men. It would just require the removal of any objects, and movement penalties.

    Or, did I also get that Wrong?

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    11 months 1 week ago - 11 months 1 week ago #23 by Davinci

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    davinci

    The only true logic is that, there is no true logic!
    Last edit: 11 months 1 week ago by Davinci.

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    11 months 1 week ago - 11 months 1 week ago #24 by RebBugler

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  • Marching Thru Georgia wrote: Thanks for the kind words.

    I'm pretty sure I've got the 'Walk' speed set correctly for true distances at 3 miles per hour, as explained in the first post.

    That's something else I don't understand. Measuring the map size by using marching speed doesn't make a lot of sense. If you do so, then you have to say the map is a 2 hour map or whatever. All you are measuring by walking speed is how long it takes a unit to march over hills, through stream valleys, through woods, etc. in a certain amount of time. That is completely dependent on the terrain features and does not measure distance. It measures time for one particular path across the map.

    I used the Kansas map and tested across flat and open terrain. A unit was moved the distance of 880 yards, 1/2 mile, and the walk speed was tweaked until the unit completed that distance in 10 minutes...Establishing a walk speed of 3. This is based on historic observations that marching troops cover 3 miles in 1 hour, or 1 mile in twenty minutes, hence 1/2 mile in ten minutes. Am I being clear yet, or did I miss something?

    NSD wanted its regiment line to represent the average length of ground a real regiment occupied. So they enlarged the sprites such that an average regiment had the correct length. Hence the sprites are 12 feet high.
    To find out why the number of pixels/yd. is 30, just a little arithmetic is needed. A SOWGB 2.5 mi. map is 130752 pixels on a side. So 130752 / 2.5 = 52301 pixels / mi. There are 1760 yd. per mi., so 52301 / 1760 = 29.7 or 30 pixels/yd. For 5 mi. maps, (261824 pixels) you end up with 29.75 or once again 30 pixels/yd.
    Reb's mod cuts the size of the maps in half, in effect bringing the geographical items closer together, (in terms of yd. apart), but making the units look like they are farther apart, (pixels apart).

    I knew about the 12 feet sprite scaling procedure, but the rest of your explanation provided for more enlightenment...Thanks :)

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    11 months 1 week ago #25 by 52ndOx

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  • A SOWGB 2.5 mi. map is 130752 pixels on a side.

    Now I'm confused even more :P

    I thought that A SOWWL map is based on the heightmap, and 2.5 miles would olny be 256 pixels.
    The actual bmp can be any resolution no?
    GB is different?

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    11 months 1 week ago #26 by Davinci

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  • 52ndOx wrote: I thought that A SOWWL map is based on the heightmap, and 2.5 miles would olny be 256 pixels.
    The actual bmp can be any resolution no?
    GB is different?

    The "height.tga" located in the LStudio does determine the size of the Map, but if you start up the LStudio and turn the camera ninety degrees and move along the edge of the map until the end of it.

    That will show you the coordinates from one end until the next.

    The Mapname.bmp has to be 8bit as far as I know.

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    11 months 1 week ago - 11 months 1 week ago #27 by 52ndOx

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  • The Mapname.bmp has to be 8bit as far as I know.

    Yes, and grayscale too.
    But it can be any size, changing it from 1024p to 2048p doesn't make more miles on the map, it just makes distances between locations smaller because the coordinates have to be scaled to the 512p (for 5 miles) heightmap anyway.
    At least, that's how it works for me, but I am still a novice.

    Changing vertical scale shouldn't affect anything, all objects in PR6 can be arbitrarily scaled anyway.
    Terrain sprites are scalable in gfx.csv but not on independent axes. The aspect ratio is fixed.
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    11 months 1 week ago - 11 months 1 week ago #28 by Marching Thru Georgia

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  • So, a "Single" man would occupy a single pixel standing up, and if it were laid down it would only occupy two pixels in length, correct?

    No. He occupies as many pixels as is his original drawn size times the scale modifier in unitpack. He's like a house. His size doesn't change when UnitPerYard is changed.

    I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.
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    11 months 1 week ago #29 by RebBugler

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  • Davinci wrote: Dis-Regard This Post!

    davinci


    Yeah, that post kinda epitomized your slogan:

    "The only true logic is that, there is no true logic!"

    :lol:

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    11 months 1 week ago #30 by 52ndOx

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  • Davinci wrote: Dis-Regard This Post!

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    Yes. It's like the start of Davinci Buddhism.
    "Do not think about the white horse"
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