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Road to Wargram and Peninsular Mod - Updated 1.6

8 years 6 months ago #61 by born2see

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  • OK. So the Square should not break against a cavalry charge but would if attacked by infantry. I assume that would be by melee or attrition. The only thing I've read about Squares was Keegan's The Face of Battle where he talks about the men holding fast against artillery even if the man next to you was decapitated and the officers holding their swords flat against the backs of the soldiers to keep them in formation. At some point they would break and head for the hills like units in any other formation. Am I correct so far?

    As far as mapping a command to a keystroke, I could test that but I'm sure G has done that already. My question is when he says they wouldn't stay in formation when they fought he means once they started shooting they would dissolve into a line.

    I guess we should get him involved in the conversation. What I'm trying to do is distill what needs to be changed in the game engine so I can present it to Norb. That's important for getting changes like this made.

    B

    "Those in whose judgment I rely, tell me that I fought the battle splendidly and that it was a masterpiece of art.” - George McClellan to his wife describing the battle of Antietam

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    8 years 6 months ago #62 by Jack ONeill

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  • Born,

    Yes to all, I believe. I own Keegan's book, too. I know the relevant passage. However, All I was originally looking for was the ability to use the formation. A GOOD commander would hold his Horse back, using the threat of a charge to force a square. Horse batteries, attached to the Cav brigades, would trot up, unlimber and crush the squares with cannister, allowing either the horsemen to ride down the fleeing infantry or the approaching friendly infantry columns to charge and break them that way. The rest of it would be icing on an already groovy cake. :)
    I agree, Gunship and Norb must be consulted. It IS G's Mod, after all. :laugh:

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    8 years 6 months ago #63 by born2see

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  • Jack,

    I'm going to wait to hear from G and then once we have a concise idea of what is needed I'll submit the request. I need you guys to define it for me because I know very little about the tactics of the period beyond what I've already mentioned. I've already put in a request regarding cavalry not charging unlimbered artillery.

    I would like to get this resolved as I think it will be a great addition to the game if we can model non ACW battles accurately.

    B

    "Those in whose judgment I rely, tell me that I fought the battle splendidly and that it was a masterpiece of art.” - George McClellan to his wife describing the battle of Antietam

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    8 years 6 months ago #64 by cliometrician

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  • Thanks for the quick reply, Gunship. I deselected all my mods, activated the Napoleonic mod, but I still get the error message when I hit the space bar. Black screen comes up and says that Sourge of War has quit working?

    What am I doing wrong?

    "I may have fought on the side that was wrong, but I fought on the right side." John S. Mosby

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    8 years 6 months ago #65 by born2see

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  • Have you set your uniform quality to best?

    B

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    8 years 6 months ago #66 by Marching Thru Georgia

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  • born2see wrote:

    I would like to get this resolved as I think it will be a great addition to the game if we can model non ACW battles accurately.

    The game would handle the Seven Years War very well since the ACW was essentially a sloppy continuation of that type of warfare. However modeling Napoleon's wars would be a major undertaking. Many more formations would need to be added along with dedicated AI's for both the artillery and cavalry. Many more rules would have to be introduced to govern the interaction of all three branches with each other. It was combined arms warfare after all. As much as I would love to see SOW morph into such a game and can think of no better programmer than Norb to do it, given the development needed, I don't think he will want to do that until he feels he's done all he can with the ACW period.

    I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.

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    8 years 6 months ago #67 by born2see

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  • Marching Thru Georgia wrote:

    I don't think he will want to do that until he feels he's done all he can with the ACW period.


    You're right about that. I guess what I was looking for was a way to add a couple of features that would enhance the playability of the Napoleon and Zulu mods.

    Maybe because I'm playing so much ACW these days it would be fun to play another period. That's why I was excited about both of those.

    Let me know what I can do to help.

    B

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    8 years 6 months ago #68 by Marching Thru Georgia

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  • born2see wrote:

    I guess what I was looking for was a way to add a couple of features that would enhance the playability of the Napoleon and Zulu mods.

    Implementing the square formation would be a well defined and good first step. There was even a rebel regiment that formed one on the 1st day at Gettysburg.

    I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.

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    8 years 6 months ago #69 by Jack ONeill

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  • All, Sorry to be out of it last night. Other half was online.

    After giving this "square" issue more thought I came up with this - Square formations should be done manually by the player. Reason - if we ask Norb and Team to put this actually IN the game engine, the following will happen - It might/will carry over into the ACW side of the game. Thus, we will have the spectacle of the 7th. North Carolina forming square to repel the 9th. Pennsylvania Cavalry as it approaches the 300 yard mark (or whatever.). Not what I want to see. There was another thought but it's gone for right now. I think we must consider the Base game of ACW as the standard and not change things to suit another period IF it will indeed affect said base game.

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    8 years 6 months ago #70 by Jack ONeill

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  • All,

    I realize Gunship tested and chose not to use the square formation in his Mod. I would like to test it out myself, just to see if it may be tweaked just a tiny bit to allow it to be incorperated. As to that, I need to do two things -

    1) put in the 2 lines of code (or instructions) Born has graciously posted earlier in this thread. I have no idea where they go, so help there.

    2) Route the square command to a key on the keyboard. I have never done this. May seem obvious to some out there, but I haven't done it, yet.

    Thanks in advance.

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    8 years 6 months ago #71 by born2see

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  • I can do that for you but I need a little time. If someone beats me to it let me know.

    B

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    8 years 6 months ago #72 by Jack ONeill

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  • Roger that Brother. BTW, How was the Event @ Kearney Park? Just remembered you went.

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    8 years 6 months ago #73 by born2see

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  • jack,

    I was wrong. You can't use the formation command as a keystroke because it crashes the game. What I'll need to do is create a little Mod which will take some more time. Let me do that and when it's done I'll send it to you. I'll probably just use one of the stock buttons without changing the way it looks. Funky but it should work for our purposes. Again if someone has an easier way let me know so I don't waste my time.

    B

    PS: I never made it to the re-enactment but my friends did and they said it was great. Lots of people and exhibits and it was a two day event with a night battle. I was really sorry I couldn't go.

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    8 years 6 months ago #74 by Jack ONeill

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  • B,

    Roger that. How much of a problem would it be to add a button? There doesn't seem to be any room on the toolbar for one. You wouldn't think this would be such an issue.
    BTW, I'm doing a music mod to incorporate period music for the march music. Might be a little weird having Austrian troops marching to the French National Anthem but, oh well...LOL!

    Jack B)

    P.S. - Sucks you didn't get to Kearny Park.

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    8 years 6 months ago #75 by Jack ONeill

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  • Oh yes, and French infantry marching to Bagpipes. LOL! :lol:

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    8 years 6 months ago #76 by born2see

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  • I've never done it but there are a couple of Toolbar mods out there. I use RebBugler's which I really like.

    I'm not a modder but I could probably kluge one together for testing. If you wanted a more permanent solution then someone else who's an experienced modder would have to add it to a custom toolbar.

    I suspect gunship could probably provide you with something better to test with.

    B

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    8 years 6 months ago - 8 years 6 months ago #77 by gunship24

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  • Just to add what I've found:

    What are Squares

    This is a defensive formation used in this period against cavalry. The square which we see in movies is the Hollow type and was the most common during the war. This consisted of ranks facing out, the first rank kneeling, the majority of them pointing their bayonets out and not firing. Now matter how hard you try a horse will never go into such a wall of spikes, therefore this makes it superb for dealing with cavalry.

    Types of squares

    Mostly the Hollow type, that being edges with space in the middle for the colours and commanding officers, surgeons, drummers etc. These could be battalion or brigade squares. In fact many times they weren't even squares but more irregular shapes as several battalions came together hastily. Most of the time squares did not move, however it wasn't unknown to have the rear guard form square while marching as often the enemy cavalry would be nearby.

    Vs Infantry and Artillery

    Squares are highly vulnerable to artillery fire as you can imagine all those bodies tightly packed make a good target. Their firepower is greatly reduced as most of the men are forming a steel wall so if an enemy line comes up then the square will take casualties and not be able to respond. The idea therefore is to threaten the square using cavalry then bring up infantry and artillery support to blast away. Should the square react then they would be sabred by the cavalry, something which didn't happen at Waterloo.

    Squares in SoW

    While I would love norb to put the square stuff in more I think that because they weren't used hardly ever in ACW it would go against the grain of the game somewhat.

    However let me put that aside for a minute and see what it would take to have cavalry done fully. I think the reaction to cavalry is a good idea. This could be combined with the commander skill rating to determine when he would form square if at all. To prevent any ACW unit forming a square you could have a special type of cavalry that would trigger the reaction to form square, regular ACW cavalry then no, special type either scenario or historic then yes.

    There are few quirks with the square formation that would require their own code to all other formations. The need to have the flag facing the enemy must go. A square cannot be flanked. A square should never break formation to melee but should stand where they are to melee even against infantry. I'm not going to go as far as only the face firing at the enemy should be shown as firing as I think thats pushing it way to far B)

    What I have tested
    I have tested the square formation in combat. I had the following set in drills:
    KeepFormation = 0 (the unit will change to column to march forming square at the end)
    CanWheel = 1 (square will wheel to face enemy)
    CanFight = 1 (square will fire back)
    MoveRateMod = -0.9 (squares move slowly in my test)
    CantMove = 1 (this doesn't work as I can still move the square, perhaps it has another meaning but you can combat this by putting a large negative number in MoveRateMod)
    CantCharge = 1 (square will receive the charge and not counter charge)

    One good thing I noticed is that the unit will reform to square if it wins a melee. The stock square shows all sprites firing but you can easily just get the outer ranks firing by assigning the number 2 (NCO) sprite to the formation positions. All sides fire but that is fine, imagine the odd horse or soldier moving around the sides.

    What I think would work
    Ok so ive already discussed the reaction based on commander skill and the special type of cavalry to trigger the reaction. This would keep ACW era normal. At the very least I would love to see the FireMod and MeleeMod in the drills working, these would act similar to the Melee and Fire modifiers in unitattributes that are set with the units expereince level. It's been placed but doesn't seem to do anything. This would improve the ACW engine in my opinion as you can reduce the melee and fire ability of a skirmish formation, increase the melee of an attack column while reducing fire power etc. In the case of squares you could use it to increase melee skill (you would have to balance this for infantry) whilst significantly reducing fire power.

    A CanBeFlanked column in drills would be good. Or simply hardcode it.

    Artillery targeting a dense square is already in the game due to the radius hit thingy that you see when enfilading.

    Conclusion
    So without the ability to modify a square's melee of fire ratings the only reason to have them in square at the moment is for show.

    Last edit: 8 years 6 months ago by gunship24.
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    8 years 6 months ago #78 by Jack ONeill

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  • Brilliant!

    Gunship, well laid out. Yes, realistically, at this point, a square would almost be just for show. Again, given my points from earlier AND your points above, I believe that having squares would be permissible AND somewhat functional if they were to be operated manually by the player. This would alleviate changing the game engine and thus having ACW troops forming square, while adding to the already fantastic visual effect of this stunning Mod.

    Again though, how can I do this? As stated before, I really have no idea how to get the square code lines in the right file, then install a button on the toolbar like you did with L'ordre mixte.

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    8 years 6 months ago - 8 years 6 months ago #79 by gunship24

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  • Jack ONeill wrote: Again though, how can I do this? As stated before, I really have no idea how to get the square code lines in the right file, then install a button on the toolbar like you did with L'ordre mixte.
    Jack B)


    This might work:

    Open gui.csv and add this:
    GUI_LVL6_Inf_Combat,GFX_BS_Buttons,939,655,,,,3,3,3,5,3,3,3,4,0,0,0,0,form:DRIL_Lvl6_Inf_Square,,Square,,,#formnum == 5,
    GUI_LVL6_LINE_Inf_Combat,GFX_BS_Buttons,939,655,,,,3,3,3,5,3,3,3,4,0,0,0,0,form:DRIL_Lvl6_Inf_Square,,Square,,,#formnum == 5,

    This will add another column button on both infantry toolbars but when you cursor over it it will say square. You will therefore have two column buttons like my screenshot and its the left one that will form square.
    Last edit: 8 years 6 months ago by gunship24.
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    8 years 6 months ago #80 by Jack ONeill

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  • Roger that. Will giv it a try. Thanks.

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    8 years 6 months ago #81 by Jack ONeill

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  • G,

    Yes, that worked. Changed it in the Mod so as not to affect the ACW Game area. Now to go and goad some cavalry into charging me as a test. :laugh:
    Thanks.

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    8 years 6 months ago #82 by Jack ONeill

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  • SWEET!!!!

    Okay, Austrian Foot against Montbrun's Horse Brigade. Formed square as the Cav charged. It will take some work to get an eye for it. Six Battalions formed square. Made them as mutually supporting as possible. Squares would repeatedly fight off the first and mostly the second charges. Them do move to counter attack but only at the last minute. If they win, they do pop back into square. A couple of squares broke under sustained assaults by the Cav. Cool. No problem with that. It IS a game. Really neat thing was, if the squares really are mutually supporting, the charging horsemen take a huge amount of incoming fire as they charge, so if they do break a square, they gotta really work for it.
    Notes - You must TC the squares or they will change formation on you. It is also a good idea to quicktime them back into square so they're ready for the next charge.

    Final analysis - It's not perfect but it is REALLY COOL. Combined arms will be a big deal with this mod. Too bad the AI will probably not use the square formation. Would love to pour cannister into a square, then chash the fleeing survivers. BTW, Montbrun's Horsemen did ride down the broken squares, if they could.

    Thanks again, Gunship!!!!

    Jack B)

    P.S. - if I could ever figure out how to post screenshots I'd send a few.

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    8 years 6 months ago #83 by cliometrician

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  • Thank you! I had forgotten to set the uniforms on Best.

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    8 years 6 months ago - 8 years 6 months ago #84 by born2see

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  • Jack ONeil wrote:

    if I could ever figure out how to post screenshots I'd send a few.


    If you want to post a screenshot directly in a post, here's what you do:

    - In the game hit F4 and that will save a screenshot in your ...\Work\Screenshots\ folder in the format of screen0001.bmp, screen0002.bmp, screen000x.bmp...

    - Open these in your graphics program. I use Paint.net but any program which will allow you to save as a .jpg will do.

    - Save them as a .jpg. These are smaller than the .bmp format they are originally saved in. You're limited in size as to what you can post and the .jpg files are much smaller than the .bmp ones.

    - Start a new post and press Add File at the bottom and go to the ...\Work\Screenshots\ folder and select the file you want to post.

    - When you do that you will see an Insert button next to the Add File file one. Press that, save your post and you're done.


    B

    "Those in whose judgment I rely, tell me that I fought the battle splendidly and that it was a masterpiece of art.” - George McClellan to his wife describing the battle of Antietam
    Last edit: 8 years 6 months ago by born2see.
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    8 years 6 months ago #85 by Nowy

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  • Replied by Nowy on topic Re: Napoleonic download link
    Gunship24 you made excellent work.

    Mentioned fine, short remarks in post #77 and nice looking square formation, but it needs little bit corrections.

    Battalions square formation of course was close tight formation, but c.a. 800 men formed bigger formation which had more empty room inside. There were placed officers, wounded men and sometime other things.

    If you need some more information in that matter you can go here

    napoleonistyka.atspace.com/infantry_tactics_4.htm

    There you can find when, where and how were formed squares, how they worked, what types of squares were formed and how they operate on battlefields at that period.

    Is it possible implement all these things in you mod I don't know.
    Nevertheless there is good information about Napoleonic tactic and it could little bit help you.

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    8 years 6 months ago #86 by Jack ONeill

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  • B,

    Thanks. It appears to have been simplified some since last I tried. I have plenty of screenshots, just couldn't come to grips with posting. Will give it a shot later.

    Nowy,

    I believe most of us appreciate your information. Unfortunately you still don't get the concept of working within the game. The infantry squares we can achieve here are what the game engine can support. Posting more information is fine, but unfortunately it will tend to be superfluous. No offense, but don't take offense if we tend to ignore it. Many of us have game design experience in some fashion. We know what can be done and what has to wait. Thanks for understanding.

    All,

    Gunships Mod has just allowed something that I believe JC will want to experience - A massed Cavalry charge into unprepared Infantry. I took 15 sqaudrons of Austrian Horse last night and flung them headlong into the lead Brigade of a French Infantry Division coming up the Emmittsburg road. It was magnificent! I turned the commanders loose, (non-TC), for the first time and they ran wild. Charge followed charge. I left them alone while I dealt with my beloved whitecoat Infantry and batteries. Came back later to discover them all withdrawing in some fashion, after CAPTURING no less than 3 french battalions and causing great damage to a number of others. At that point I TC'd them again and withdrew them to a safe area behind their supporting Infantry, battered but proud. Mega-Sweet!

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    8 years 6 months ago #87 by Marching Thru Georgia

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  • I dealt with my beloved whitecoat Infantry and batteries.

    Ice cream! Get your ice cream here... :laugh: Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

    I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.

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    8 years 6 months ago #88 by Jack ONeill

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  • MTG,

    LOL!!! NP. I play both sides with equal abandon. I've painted both sides in the distant past, so it's okay. :) Am busy adding in the Austrian 1 Korps to the Eckmuhl OOB right now, to even the sides up a bit. Lots more Whitecoats and more superb Austrian Cavalry. Stay tuned. :laugh: THEN, gotta add more French Horse so we can have HUGE Cavalry battles. :woohoo:

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    8 years 6 months ago #89 by born2see

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  • gunship24 wrote:

    At the very least I would love to see the FireMod and MeleeMod in the drills working, these would act similar to the Melee and Fire modifiers in unitattributes that are set with the units expereince level. It's been placed but doesn't seem to do anything.


    Norb wrote:

    firemod - works for cav and inf, not art
    melmod - works for cav and inf

    They are in there, they increase the chance of a hit not the firepower, just the chance that a shot will make a hit. I believe this is out of 1000.


    Hope this helps.

    B

    "Those in whose judgment I rely, tell me that I fought the battle splendidly and that it was a masterpiece of art.” - George McClellan to his wife describing the battle of Antietam

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    8 years 6 months ago #90 by Jack ONeill

  • Division Commander
  • Division Commander

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  • All,

    Here is my first attempt to post a screenshot. If it works it is a shot of Austrian Infantry Squares repelling a French Light Cavalry charge. You can see the Horsemen retreating in the upper left of the picture. Squares DO work AND I was wrong, you do not have to TC them to keep them in square. They will stay there like any other formation after melee. Sweet again! :cheer:

    Jack B)

    American by birth, Californian by geography, Southerner by the Grace of God.

    "Molon Labe"
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