Statistics

Users
2888
Articles
156
Articles View Hits
1721337

Historic Waterloo as Napoleon scenario plus associated Artillery mod

4 years 1 month ago - 4 years 1 month ago #31 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • mcaryf wrote: Hi Jean

    It is very strange as one from the four Prussian variants is always selected by the game engine at 11.30 am although the actual arrivals start between 4 and 5 pm. For Grouchy's forces typically there are 2 or 3 variants whereby each Corps will appear and one or two whereby they will not. Again each variant is selected at 11.30 am for implementation in the early evening.

    The Prussian units all have commands that will send them to attack towards either Plancenoit, Papelotte or Wellington's left flank. Thus they should be noticeable. If there was a mix up with the OOB file for the Prussians or some such in your mods you would get some sort of error message or the game might crash.

    In any event if you now have a situation where the Prussians have appeared you can see how you get on. Did you note what time they actually did appear?

    I would still be interested in seeing the game database to see what impact the artillery mod is having on your casualties.


    It is the strangest thing! But I swear that no new units appeared by the time I quit the game at 2200 hours game time.

    On the second play-through that began at 1437, the new units arrived at around 1700. First, Exelmann's Corps near Maransatt and the Prussians appeared a few minutes later.

    BUT BE ASSURED that I am right about how the two separate play-throughs had different results. On the original play-through, the random events may have fired at 1130, but, some later glitch prevented their appearance.

    I did not recon the entire battlefield map so there is a possibility that the new units did appear at the map edge and just stayed there for the duration without moving. However, I did send some light cav over to Mansaratt to occupy that Waypoint Objective and saw no new units at that map area.
    Last edit: 4 years 1 month ago by Jean Lafitte.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #32 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Attachments:

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #33 by mcaryf

  • Regimental Commander
  • Regimental Commander

  • Posts: 236
  • Thank you received: 109

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Hi Jean
    I notice that you captured a tremendous number of Wellington's guns - over 100! I guess you must have done that with cavalry as I only saw a very few British guns converted to French ones. I also noted that 10% of the entire French casualties were caused by just two of the batteries that I added to be historically accurate - those of Mercer and Gardiner. In general Wellington's artillery seems to have caused you less casualties than I had expected. I presume you captured the guns quite early on otherwise they would have done you more harm. My latest variant has some guns come back into action after being "captured" in cavalry raids. Do you think that would have had an impact on your game? If your infantry followed up your cavalry rapidly (as the French actually did not do) then the "captured" guns cannot come back into action.

    You seem to have largely destroyed Wellington's army and some of the units I had programmed to withdraw if objectives are captured had already been destroyed.

    More than 50k Prussians plus Wellington's remnants have yet to be destroyed and I guess your available strength is just about 50k as well. However, as the Prussians will try to attack, the longer range artillery should make it easier for you to cause them lots of casualties.

    Have you found this variant easier or harder to play than the standard game whole day scenario?

    Obviously I cannot tell from this dump why the Prussians did not appear last time as on this run through they did. I still do not have a theory to explain that.

    Thank you for sending the dump file.

    Regards

    Mike
    The following user(s) said Thank You: Jean Lafitte

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago - 4 years 1 month ago #34 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Mike:

    Yes, the AI doesn't protect the artillery batteries very well, so, I use Cavalry to get them.

    Your variant is probably more difficult because of the additional Prussians appearing. The AI seems to handle the Anglo-Allied forces the same in both Stock WL10 and your variant -- just sit in square and wait for the Prussians.

    I plan to try your variant again, unless you think I should wait for your next variant.

    I think it's a good idea to allow some guns come back after being captured by Cavalry because the AI does such a poor job of protecting its artillery. And certainly, it would be more challenging for the Player to defeat the AI with that feature.
    Last edit: 4 years 1 month ago by Jean Lafitte.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #35 by mcaryf

  • Regimental Commander
  • Regimental Commander

  • Posts: 236
  • Thank you received: 109

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Hi Jean

    Did you finish the one where the Prussians arrived?

    I would like you to try the version you have again to see if the Prussians appear or if there is a bug that I have to investigate. You do bot have to play it properly just give the French Corps commanders some stances and leave them to get on with it until the Prussians do or do not come by 5pm.

    My current variant has some other new features such as different speed cavalry and different melee attributes for Lancers. I will have to wait to publish that for Reb's new toolbar version as he also changes a file that I change so I have to incorporate his version of that file in my mod and mine has to be the last mod to be applied.

    Regards

    Mike
    The following user(s) said Thank You: Jean Lafitte

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago - 4 years 1 month ago #36 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • No I didn't finish the one where the Prussians appeared. The reason is because just ran the game on auto-play instead of playing the game.

    However, I did begin the same game file with the glitch at the 1437 hours point. I will finish it and post the dump file here for your review.

    This is the original game file that had the glitch, so, you expect that all random events were determined at 1130 hours. It's currently approaching 1600 hours, game time. I will continue and post the dump file.

    On this play-through, I am controlling the units. Exelmanns appeared at 1630 hours and some Prussians appeared at 1635 hours. The Prussians are still marching West.
    Last edit: 4 years 1 month ago by Jean Lafitte.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #37 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • I am up to 1800 hours on this play-through. Looks like all Prussians have appeared. Exelmann appeared.

    Can anything be done about how the AI protects its artillery batteries? The AI grouped all 100 or so guns of the entire Prussian IV Korps artillery and moved it forward without any support whatsoever towards the French line -- not one Cav squadron or Inf battalion in support.

    Really sad. I guess that's why so few of us play vs the AI.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #38 by Hook

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 44
  • Thank you received: 37

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 08 Sep 1949
  • I've had everything from enemy artillery that was ridiculously easy to capture to artillery that was impossible to capture. I have also lost much of my own artillery when I didn't have the necessary forces in a position to protect it.

    Enemy artillery can be very deadly indeed, which is why I don't care to increase the power of artillery. You remember the AusArtyPatch, right? :)

    Hook
    The following user(s) said Thank You: Jean Lafitte, roy64

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #39 by mcaryf

  • Regimental Commander
  • Regimental Commander

  • Posts: 236
  • Thank you received: 109

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Hi Jean

    I did set up a few Prussian artillery batteries with units that had Guard commands that effectively detaches those units from their parent. Unfortunately apparently the AI will disregard the detach state and call the unit up if it thinks it has a need for it. It is easier I think to script the AI to look after its guns better when it is essentially on the defensive. I have been experimenting with the "screen" command but so far I cannot make it work from battlecript, I raised that in another thread.

    I will have another look at the way I have set up the Prussians and see if I can reduce the clustering.

    Regards

    Mike

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #40 by Hook

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 44
  • Thank you received: 37

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 08 Sep 1949
  • Prussian artillery tends to cluster even in the stock scenario.
    The following user(s) said Thank You: Jean Lafitte

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #41 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Hook wrote: Prussian artillery tends to cluster even in the stock scenario.


    Thanks for the opportunity for me to clarify. My post could be interpreted to be bashing Mike's mod scenario, but, it isn't. I realize that the AI is doing this and has been doing this in the stock scenario.

    If there's any solution to this, I'm certain that Mike would have found it by now, so, fixing this AI trait can't be done right now.

    It would be nice if the game company could fix it, Hook. Tell me if I'm wrong, but, in your view, does the AI in this game act an awful lot like the AI in WNLB that was published in 2001?

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #42 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Vandamme has appeared at around 1800 hours! Prussian First Korps appeared and is currently attacking from the East and is on the outskirts of Mont St Jean!

    The whole enchilada seems to have appeared on this play-through of the my original game which I saved and re-started at 1437 hours.

    Mike, it appears that, although all randoms fire and are determined at 1130 hours, that the game engine has variable unit appearance notwithstanding. Something is happening after 1130 hours to cause random variation from no new units to the whole host appearing.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #43 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • mcaryf wrote: Hi Jean

    I did set up a few Prussian artillery batteries with units that had Guard commands that effectively detaches those units from their parent. Unfortunately apparently the AI will disregard the detach state and call the unit up if it thinks it has a need for it. It is easier I think to script the AI to look after its guns better when it is essentially on the defensive. I have been experimenting with the "screen" command but so far I cannot make it work from battlecript, I raised that in another thread.

    I will have another look at the way I have set up the Prussians and see if I can reduce the clustering.

    Regards

    Mike


    Mike, I think that we are dealing with the same game engine and AI that was coded into the game Waterloo: Napoleon's Last Battle, which was published in the summer of the year 2001, i.e. ancient times WRT the PC world.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #44 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • 2000 hours

    Infantry and Artillery from the Prussian II Korps have assembled East of La Haye Saint and are attacking towards that objective presently.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #45 by mcaryf

  • Regimental Commander
  • Regimental Commander

  • Posts: 236
  • Thank you received: 109

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Hi Jean

    I guess you are already well ahead with your points score so unless Napoleon gets killed you will still win. There are probably over 200 variants given the various randomising options but most of those options are determined at 11.30 am.

    I dis in fact use quite a lot of the scripting from the standard game in the version you have. My current versions have continued to add new scripts so in my latest Waterloo there is probably about twice as much of my code compared with the original. I tried out having ammo wagons with lower loads just letting the AI play itself today. Two French wagons ran out of ammo altogether but the remainder still had plenty so I have just gone through the scenario files and reduced them further. I should say of course that I do not do that for the AI side.

    Regards

    Mike

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago - 4 years 1 month ago #46 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Do you agree with my opinion that SOWWL is the same game engine as WNLB?

    Did any French battalions or batteries run out of ammo at Ligny or Waterloo?
    Last edit: 4 years 1 month ago by Jean Lafitte.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago - 4 years 1 month ago #47 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • File Attachment:

    File Name: SowWL_game...6-11.csv
    File Size:508 KB


    Scenario ends itself near 2130 hours.
    Attachments:
    Last edit: 4 years 1 month ago by Jean Lafitte.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #48 by Hook

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 44
  • Thank you received: 37

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: 08 Sep 1949
  • I remember playing ANGV. For some reason I don't remember WNLB, but I know I have the game.

    As for the AI, I have no idea. There's no reason why using a similar AI is a bad thing, and I'm certainly not going to criticize the developer for reuse of resources. But as far as I know there has been considerable rewrite of the AI. Ask Mitra, he's the one who did it. I doubt there was much from WNLB that he *could* use, and you would expect the general AI philosophy to be the same when it's from the same company.

    I remember people complaining bitterly because arty in those games could "run out of ammunition." At the time I explained it as the guns will be fighting another battle soon enough and have to have ammo for that battle as well. There is, after all, only so much ammo in the trains. Since then I've learned about guns overheating, which is a much better reason to withdraw from combat. An overheated cannon is more dangerous to its own crew than to the enemy. I have suggested linking the overheating problem to crew exhaustion, which may already have some effect.

    Hook
    The following user(s) said Thank You: Jean Lafitte

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #49 by mcaryf

  • Regimental Commander
  • Regimental Commander

  • Posts: 236
  • Thank you received: 109

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Hi Jean

    I did play WNLB and the related Peninsular Mod. I do not think the game engine is really related to SOW except in so far as they are trying to simulate the same event. As far as I recall WNLB was based on Sid Meier's Gettysburg in the same way that SOW started with Gettyburg. I think in WNLB you used to see the flags of units that were low on morale begin to droop which was a nice feature. I might be thinking of another game but WNLB might have had a facility whereby gun crews could retreat into squares as did happen in the battle.

    It was possible to mod WNLB but not as easily as you can SOW.

    With respect to ammo I am not aware of any French units being reported as running low on ammunition unlike both the Allied and Prussian armies but as the French were mainly on the offensive against Wellington it would be less likely that they should.

    Of course if the battle takes a different shape with the French more on the defensive particularly against an earlier arrival of the Prussians then ammunition might be more of an issue. I had hoped to cause the player to have to think rather more carefully about artillery expenditure. Unfortunately artillery rounds seem to "cost" the same as a musket round and every wagon can service any unit so it is not possible to limit artillery fire by that means. Crews do seem to suffer from exhaustion late in the day. I intend to experiment with smaller crews to see if they get tired quicker.

    I am going to be away on holiday for a week from tomorrow so I may not be able to respond to any posts for that time.

    I have had a quick look at your dump file and again Wellington's guns seem to have caused less casualties than they should. I hope to be able to let you have my version with the batteries regenerating after my return from holiday.

    Regards

    Mike
    The following user(s) said Thank You: Jean Lafitte

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago - 4 years 1 month ago #50 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Take your time. No hurry. Enjoy your holiday.

    Could you make a quick mod to your version that delivers all of the Prussians in every case? And leaves out all of Grouchy's folks, in every case?

    If you can just tweak to guarantee all Prussian arrival, the player can always just leave any arriving Grouchy people down there in the lower Southeast corner of the mapboard and completely out of the fight.

    PS My game actually ended near 2130, not 2200. The game ended on its own after dark.
    Last edit: 4 years 1 month ago by Jean Lafitte.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #51 by mcaryf

  • Regimental Commander
  • Regimental Commander

  • Posts: 236
  • Thank you received: 109

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Hi Jean

    In my latest variant the French player gets three choices at the start of play- first whether the Prussians start arriving immediately i.e. if Thielmann's Corps was sent immediately from their location North of Wavre. They would not have been delayed by the fire and were closer than Bulow so three of their Brigades would have arrived by 11.30 am (one was still South of the Dyle so comes later).

    Second the player can decide whether or not Napoleon kept most of Grouchy's units with the main army - so you can choose that they did not. Finally they can choose whether Grouchy effectively failed in his attempt to delay the Prussians at Wavre. In fact less than half the Prussians participated in Waterloo so Grouchy's role was more significant than most writers allow. if Grouchy loses then both Wellington and the Prussians will be more aggressive as they are aware that they have a chance to crush Napoleon with much larger forces.

    Regards

    Mike
    The following user(s) said Thank You: Jean Lafitte

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    4 years 1 month ago #52 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • That sounds very interesting indeed!

    Godspeed!

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    3 years 10 months ago #53 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    3 years 10 months ago - 3 years 10 months ago #54 by mcaryf

  • Regimental Commander
  • Regimental Commander

  • Posts: 236
  • Thank you received: 109

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Hi Jean

    You might have noticed another thread of mine about withdrawing units. I am making very good progress with my new technique of setting up routines for AI controlled batteries so that they approach enemy forces and automatically stop and deploy when they get within my longer range for canister. This has made the AI use of artillery so much more effective that I am busy redesigning all my scenarios so that this technique is included. As the AI is more effective I have to change the victory conditions so it is taking me some time to do it. I have nearly finalised my alternate history version of Quatre Bras which is now an all day battle where Ney has additional forces (e.g. Lobau's Corps) but Wellington has more his army earlier in the day. I calculated which units could have arrived if he sent the appropriate orders by 6 pm on June 15th. My new way of handling advancing artillery is very relevant as this is essentially an encounter battle.

    The routines will not impact the early stages of Waterloo but will make a huge difference to the Prussian forces as they advance to attack Plancenoit. Previously this has been a bit of a bloodbath for the Prussians and it was very easy for a French human player to drive back Prussian artillery so the Prussians typically fight with just cavalry and infantry. I have not started to code and test the new version yet. The coding will be just to add the halt, deploy and or fallback routines for each Prussian battery but it might take a while to fine tune the play balance as this will be very different o my current version. If you are happy to try an unbalanced game I could probably post a version next week.

    regards

    Mike
    Last edit: 3 years 10 months ago by mcaryf.
    The following user(s) said Thank You: Jean Lafitte

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    3 years 3 months ago #55 by Jean Lafitte

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 167
  • Thank you received: 34

  • Gender: Male
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • I'm disappointed in myself to have allowed over 7 months to pass before I touched base with this thread again.

    Even so, I'm still interested in your continuing work.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    3 years 3 months ago #56 by mcaryf

  • Regimental Commander
  • Regimental Commander

  • Posts: 236
  • Thank you received: 109

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • Hi Jean

    Actually I have been busy working on a very old Mod I did years ago for a WW2 simulator Strategic Command - Assault on Democracy which was re-issued last year via Matrix to previous licence holders. I had lost my original version of the base game when a previous PC died but I had saved my old Mod files. I have been completing my original concept. Thus I have not posted much on here whilst you have been away.

    If you have not tried my new version of my Mod it does let the AI's artillery perform a whole lot better by having them approach to canister range and then gradually withdraw whilst still firing if the opponent advances. Of course my canister range is historically accurate so about double the standard game.

    regards

    Mike

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    Moderators: RebBuglergunship24Leffe7Sargonpaul9038