MP Arty/Charge Changes

[norb]

We've made two changes in this patch that will affect these issues that people have been complaining about. We feel our changes are subtle enough and historically accurate to not change the game too much, but also help with this issue. Please excuse my use of limber/unlimber, I always get them mixed up.

1. Arty can be captured while limbering before a retreat. This item is a bug, not a design issue. The bug has been fixed. When arty hits retreat, they go to limber up and they are basically completely vulnerable for a little while. That is the risk of bringing arty too close to the enemy.

2. Inf cannot charge out of column. This is not historically accurate and has been disabled.

We believe that these two changes should help with the issues that people have addressed on these forums.

Please reply back and give us some feedback on how they are working or not working out.

[Jack ONeill]

Sweet... B)

[Kerflumoxed]

Thanks for the changes, Norb. No question it will improve the historical accuracy of the game, especially eliminating infantry charging in column as well as the artillery being able to fire cannister at opposing troops through friendly infantry!

I would like to offer one comment on guns retreating: When a piece (gun) was ordered to retreat, the limber was rushed to the gun (rather then the gun being pulled to the limber) and turned 180 degrees with the the limber placed to the left of the piece, horses facing to the rear, and the limber carriage parallel to the lunette plate on the gun carriage. Remember, during the firings the limber horses are facing the piece (horses facing forward, limber at the rear), with the lead team positioned 6 yards behind the carriage trail The gun was not "rolled" back to the limber as the game shows. When the limber arrived in position, seconds having passed, the gun was limbered (hooked up) to the limber pintle, key inserted and the retreat commenced. All during this time the muzzle faced the enemy and was only moved obliquely to "hook up". Time requred to execute this manuever was minimal because the limber team, again, was sitting only 6 yards away from the gun during firings and it was executed at the trot or gallop! Any battery commander worth his salt practiced this repeatedly as outlined in the Field Artillery Tactics. As you can readily see, the contemporary method would be much quicker then rolling the gun carriage to the rear!

Hopefully, this historical practice may be reflected in any future "patches".

Thanks again, for a great game! Hope sales are all that you wished they would be.

J

[Willard]

Kerflumoxed wrote:

Thanks for the changes, Norb. No question it will improve the historical accuracy of the game, especially eliminating infantry charging in column as well as the artillery being able to fire cannister at opposing troops through friendly infantry!

I would like to offer one comment on guns retreating: When a piece (gun) was ordered to retreat, the limber was rushed to the gun (rather then the gun being pulled to the limber) and turned 180 degrees with the the limber placed to the left of the piece, horses facing to the rear, and the limber carriage parallel to the lunette plate on the gun carriage. Remember, during the firings the limber horses are facing the piece (horses facing forward, limber at the rear), with the lead team positioned 6 yards behind the carriage trail The gun was not "rolled" back to the limber as the game shows. When the limber arrived in position, seconds having passed, the gun was limbered (hooked up) to the limber pintle, key inserted and the retreat commenced. All during this time the muzzle faced the enemy and was only moved obliquely to "hook up". Time requred to execute this manuever was minimal because the limber team, again, was sitting only 6 yards away from the gun during firings and it was executed at the trot or gallop! Any battery commander worth his salt practiced this repeatedly as outlined in the Field Artillery Tactics. As you can readily see, the contemporary method would be much quicker then rolling the gun carriage to the rear!

Hopefully, this historical practice may be reflected in any future "patches".

Thanks again, for a great game! Hope sales are all that you wished they would be.

J

Couple of quick questions reference your great post:

#1 - Are the limber/unlimber/retreat times accurate for artillery in game based upon historical norms?

#2 - What you describing above is the graphic we see, obviously as you pointed out that graphical representation isn't accurate. Any feedback from Norb or the team on modding the graphic for a future patch? For what its worth, I am not too concerned about the graphic representation, my hope is that the length of the action is historically accurate.

#3 - Have you looked at the ROF for the artillery units? I would be curious as well to know if they are accurately representated.

Thanks!!!

Willard

[Kerflumoxed]

Capt. Willard,

1. I believe the limbering and unlimbering, generally speaking, take too long. When coming into "Action, Front" the ROF was intentionally slowed down so as to not "spook" the adjacent horses coming into position. Further, the limber "swung" around to face the rear with the gun muzzle directed at the enemy, again, shortening the time necessary to unlimber and come into action. Naturally, the better trained the drivers and gun crew, the faster they were in action.

2. The graphic illustration would certainly "improve the appearance" of the gun crew going into action and demonstrate how quickly the gun would be ready for firing...rather then unlimbering, turning the gun to face the enemy and rolling forward.

3. Here is a quote that I posted in a thread on artillery some months ago before the game was released and ROF was being discussed:

"As I have noted previously, the artillery functions of TC2M seem to be out of "sync" with the concept of "real time" (which, otherwise, I really enjoy). While searching the web for "rate of fire" during the Civil War I happened upon this statement: "An efficient gun crew could load and fire up to three rounds per minute." at this site: www.nps.gov/archive/gett/soldierlife/artillery.htm

"This is from the National Park Service at Gettysburg and titled: "THE CIVIL WAR SOLDIER
'Forward into battery! March!'"

On the other hand, Hunt urged/ordered the slowing down of firing to preserve ammunition and, theoretically, improve accuracy. However, when the enemy was rapidly approaching, I suspect Hunt's directives were ignored.

Another point is the use of double cannister. At the current level, cannister can be used at 200 yards. As one reads the accounts of the use of double cannister, shouldn't that be reflected by increasing the casualty rates to, say, 100 yards, reflecting double and even triple cannister???

J
aka WSH Baylor

[Willard]

Kerflumoxed wrote:

Capt. Willard,

1. I believe the limbering and unlimbering, generally speaking, take too long. When coming into "Action, Front" the ROF was intentionally slowed down so as to not "spook" the adjacent horses coming into position. Further, the limber "swung" around to face the rear with the gun muzzle directed at the enemy, again, shortening the time necessary to unlimber and come into action. Naturally, the better trained the drivers and gun crew, the faster they were in action.

2. The graphic illustration would certainly "improve the appearance" of the gun crew going into action and demonstrate how quickly the gun would be ready for firing...rather then unlimbering, turning the gun to face the enemy and rolling forward.

3. Here is a quote that I posted in a thread on artillery some months ago before the game was released and ROF was being discussed:

"As I have noted previously, the artillery functions of TC2M seem to be out of "sync" with the concept of "real time" (which, otherwise, I really enjoy). While searching the web for "rate of fire" during the Civil War I happened upon this statement: "An efficient gun crew could load and fire up to three rounds per minute." at this site: www.nps.gov/archive/gett/soldierlife/artillery.htm

"This is from the National Park Service at Gettysburg and titled: "THE CIVIL WAR SOLDIER
'Forward into battery! March!'"

On the other hand, Hunt urged/ordered the slowing down of firing to preserve ammunition and, theoretically, improve accuracy. However, when the enemy was rapidly approaching, I suspect Hunt's directives were ignored.

Another point is the use of double cannister. At the current level, cannister can be used at 200 yards. As one reads the accounts of the use of double cannister, shouldn't that be reflected by increasing the casualty rates to, say, 100 yards, reflecting double and even triple cannister???

J
aka WSH Baylor

Reference the speed, I haven't noticed any difference length of time for skill levels for various actions. Have you noticed a difference? To me, the skilled gun crews should have a distinct advantage in speed to perform these various actions over unskilled gun crews. I would be interested in knowing if this has been implemented in game.

[Kerflumoxed]

Reference the speed, I haven't noticed any difference length of time for skill levels for various actions. Have you noticed a difference? To me, the skilled gun crews should have a distinct advantage in speed to perform these various actions over unskilled gun crews. I would be interested in knowing if this has been implemented in game.

Willard

A couple of "outside" factors would probably come into play as well: 1) The experience level of the drivers and 2) the experience level of the horses. If these were all equal for each gun, there would probably be a minimum of difference in the ability to come into "battery" as the gun crew only has to dismount, pull the key, and drop the "gun trail" to the ground. (In actual practice, one man can pull the key and lift the gun trail from the pintle and drop it to the ground, having done it many times during my younger days. ) As to positioning the gun for service after it is unlimbered, the experience level of the crew would then come into play.

BTW, on another aspect of graphics, I must commend Norb and the team for 1) the infantry marching in the correct 4-man abreast column (unlike the 3-man abreast European style in TC2M) and 2) having "file closers" behind the infantry firing line. These are very nice editions to the historical accuracy, although I am unable to determine from their uniforms if the 2,3,4,5 Sgts. and the Lts. are in the correct order. :huh:

J