Suggestion from the MP community

[Garnier]

Suggestion: "Unlock" map-making sooner. (Ideally, as soon as possible.)


The only argument I've seen against this is that it would hurt NSD as a business.

Unlocking map-making would obviously be very beneficial to the community, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. This argument is that it would also benefit NSD.

Some part of NSD appears to think it benefits the company to keep maps locked. This is to hopefully help persuade them otherwise, for NSD's sake as well as the community. We love the game, and have much respect for those who made it -- this isn't meant as a rant or bash against the team/game itself.


Outline:

• Delaying the "unlocking" of maps hurts the modding community.
• There is little immediate cost for NSD to unlock maps.
• Does a stronger modding community help NSD monetarily?
  If no, then modding is bad for NSD, so it should hurt modding.
  If yes, then modding is good for NSD, so it should help modding.
• Yes, it is beneficial, and why.

Delaying map making hurts the modding community.

Preventing mapmaking has hurt the modding community and MP community for what is now 18 months. I can recall at least six instances of would-be modders asking it mapmaking was allowed and then disappearing. Of course those are just the ones who came here and ask. While I've been able to get lots of gamers to buy the game, I can't get modder friends to come here when mapmaking isn't allowed. There are modders out there, but they are being told they aren't wanted.

Meanwhile other indie games that supported their modding communities from the start are getting the free work and community that goes with it. This is the only indie company I know of that openly hurts the modding community. Every other game I've followed, the developers can only talk about how beneficial the modding community has been.

When mapmaking is unlocked, the time that has already been missed cannot be made up. Time cannot be recovered. From this community's perspective, the time modders, including me, have spent making maps/working for other games because we couldn't do it here is value lost.


There is little immediate cost for NSD to unlock maps.

The modding community does not need tools from NSD to make maps. We're not asking for the team to put a lot of effort into something here, we're asking for the built in prevention of map-modding to be removed.


Does a stronger modding community help NSD?

Is it monetarily beneficial for NSD when users create free content/tools/additions for SOWGB?

If it is not, then keeping maps locked makes sense, and I should take down GCM, for example, because it hurts NSD.

If it is beneficial, then how do you draw an arbitrary line and say that some additions such as GCM, or half-way random maps are beneficial, but better random maps, for instance, would not be?


Yes, it is beneficial, and why.

My answer is yes, it is monetarily beneficial for NSD.

Someone who creates something for the game is interested in getting people to play it, and spreads the word to others, some of whom buy it.

This modder probably has friends who are modders, and they will spread the word farther. Modders attract more modders. This is why some modding communities are enormous compared to the rest. The Total War series and the Mount & Blade series, for example, have huge modding communities. They drew in modders early on, and the number has grown exponentially. (I name these two because I have been actively involved in them, I know there are many others.)

Community growth depends on previous community growth. Hurt the community, and it loses something forever. If the community grows, it will grow even more. The more the community grows, the more people know about the game, and buy it. The bigger the community, the more people there are to buy expansions and new games.

By growing the community, NSD makes more money.



Everyone who wishes, please post your thoughts/agreement/disagreement.

[WriterJWA]

I agree wholeheartedly. I my own opinion ... I feel as if NSD has perhaps painted themselves into a corner with focusing on Gettysburg specifically and tying scenarios around it. There is so much of the American Civil War that can be, and should, be explored. With an entity as small as NSD is, modding and complete third-party scenario designing is the best way to accomplish that, IMO.

Hindsight being what it is, another approach might have been to build a general Civil War engine and release modules that focus on aspects of the Civil War, or perhaps modules that reflect each year of the war and the weapons, units, and trends presented at the time.

Example, the original sell might be the engine and the 1861 module (which includes scenarios), then release "1862," then so on.... Just a spitballed idea.

Nevertheless... opening the game up would increase sustainability of the game for certain ... people would be around a lot longer, and it would certainly attract more interest across the board.

[giob60]

I completely agree with you Garnier.

Giob

[Kerflumoxed]

Although I have not been a frequent player in recent times, I wholeheartedly support the efforts and suggestions of Mr. Garnier! Lacking a sound basis for prohibiting the map-making suggestion, I urge consideration and implementation of the essential tools.

WSH Baylor

[Garnier]

I urge consideration and implementation of the essential tools.

Appreciate it, but I don't mean to ask for anything that would take much effort. The maps are locked intentionally, and without spending work on tools, they could be unlocked.

[norb]

We've addressed this a few times already and we have a good plan for moving forward. There's a lot more under the covers than what's been suggested. We sort of run this group like a little democracy and it's a team vote and so far every time we've taken the vote it remains the same. At this point we are not ready to take on the unlock, we have other features that we are focusing our efforts on right now. To switch everything, change all the plans at this point, just isn't feasible. We are a small group that does this in our free time, the answer would be different if we were a full time company. But since we all can just put in the time we have available, it requires doing things differently and usually much more slowly than a regular company. We try to explain our reasons for our decisions to everyone, not in the hope of starting a debate, but just so we aren't some black box developer that doesn't answer the communties questions. We spend a ton of time scheduling out our efforts and putting in our time where we feel it's best. We know that we can never please everyone and that not everyone will agree with our decisions. But we do our best to give an answer, so that people can at least have an idea of some of the thinking behind our decisions. I know that we will constantly have to redress this issue until it's complete and I realize that it's much easier to focus on the features that are not in the game rather than all the features we've worked hard on to put in the game. But given our limited resources, we have to set limits. Even though we know that not everyone will always agree.

[KG_Soldier]

I'm all for getting as many maps as possible. How about you guys make a map editor and sell it? I'd buy it.

[Davinci]

I’m sort of torn here between standing with the modders and acknowledging that the Map Making Tools should be released as soon as possible, and understanding that this is a business.

It is rumored that a new engine is in the works, but an exact time-frame has not been released as far as I know.

This means that this engine will probably not be compatible with the newer engine, and the newer engine will probably require a newer set of map making tools.

So, from this time, until that time, there is a small window that maps could be made with this engine, but I also understand that there will probably be several more map expansion packs in-between this period.

Now, I cannot speak for anyone else, so I will use myself as an example here.

There are only four of the maps that have been released that I have played on, the DD-RT, Alpine, Gettysburg (five-mile), and the PLC2 , all of the other maps are just there!

You could release another dozen maps, but I’m really not interested in any of them, but I’ll still buy them as long as this helps the NSD company.

Now, for the sake of this debate let us agree that during the next twelve months two more map-packs are released at (ten dollars) each.

This will still not solve the debate that there are a lot of us that only want the map-making-tools, and not another map-pack.

Why, not continue to make the expansion packs for the individuals that only want that, and sell the map making tools for those of us that only want the maps unlocked!

Basically, I would rather pay twenty dollars for the map making tools \ patch – that allows my game to use unlocked maps, than to pay the same (twenty dollars) for a few more maps that I’m probably not going to play on!

This will give the community the option of choosing which method they would prefer!

davinci

[norb]

It's just time. That's our limiting factor for everything we do. We have limited time to do everything that needs to be done. There's a ton to running this business and it's like having a second full time job. I'm not complaining, just trying to explain. We would like to do everything that everyone wants, but we just don't have the time. So we just set limits and we stick to them. It's the only way to stay sane. It's fun, but it's just so crazy. Tonight I've spent 4 hours just doing accounting and paying bills My kids put the CD cases together and my wife records the registration codes in case someone loses one. We have other guys doing support, trying to get the game more sale in more places, working on marketing. While another team is working on the next major battle and another team is working on the engine upgrades. It's enough to drive people batty. We've got a great team and it would be impossible to do it without everyone, but it's still always capped by time and trying to find more time to develop.

What keeps us going is everyone here, playing and having fun. That's what keeps the lights on late at night. Everyone comes up with great features that we want to put in the game. But that's a huge level of research we take on to accomplish a map and scenarios that we feel capture the actual battle. We want it all done perfectly.

[WriterJWA]

I completely understand and empathize with the time sentiment you've presented... but I think there's a missing element here, and that is the community at large. I would estimate people who play this game in particular have an vested interest in the future of this game as it is the only modern game of its type on the market currently. Have you approached the community and petitioned for assistance to spread the burden the NSD team is currently shouldering? How many programmers are here who would be will to invest time to develop small parts of the game for an agreed-upon business arrangement (or even on a volunteer basis). I, personally, would LOVE to research battles for development for the game. It's something I do on my own as it is. Instead of having a small number of people shoulder a large load, perhaps there is a way to spread to load around to volunteers who would be willing to give time to the game they are passionate about?