Suggestion from the MP community

[Davinci]

OK , great discussion, I don’t really feel like much was accomplished, but life goes on!

Norb , is there any way possible that you can just give me the access to unlock my maps for experimental purposes only; I promise not to share this information with the other guys!

Thanks,

davinci

[Willard]

I think everyone would agree that we want more maps to play SOW with.
In the absence of that, even a random map generator would be cool (and the GCM version is ok to play with).

The problem with this is that unless there are going to be radical improvements to the game engine, the only thing drawing more people to a sequel will be new maps/campaign scenarios. One only has to look to the fact that modding activity is still ongoing in TC2M and despite the addition of MP to SOW, alot of TC2M players never made the jump to SOW.

I bought the Pipe Creek maps because I felt it was a fair price and I have had hours of enjoyment from SOW - and factoring in the time I have played SOW with purchase cost, I feel I am way ahead in the cost/benefit analysis. That being said, from what I recall, many MP players did not initially buy the Pipe's Creek Map/scenarios on principle. That is fine and their choice. However, I find it ironic that when given the opportunity to obtain more maps, etc, that players did not buy and instead we get a thread clamoring for the maps to be opened up.

From a pure self-interest standpoint, why should NSD open map modding and limit their ability to market SOW2 or whatever the sequel will be? Whether we like it or not, economics will dictate whether NSD launches a sequel. I am sure if Norb was a billionaire and money wasn't an issue, that he would release the maps. That being said, given the amount of time and effort put in by the NSD team, they are entitled to enjoy some of the fruits of the their labor. And to be honest, if I was running NSD, I wouldn't open the maps either. Once you loose control of the maps and the game engine, there is nothing left to move forward with.

From a purely MP standpoint it would be great, but the fact of the matter is that MP players unfortunately make up only a small minority proportion of the greater SOW playing community. If it was technically possible, I would love to see NSD open up the map mods just for MP play. That would allow for mods and drive interest in MP play but wouldn't stagnate future SP interest (of course I am sure there would be a SP backlash to this!!! :laugh:)

As that is unlikely, I would much rather have NSD continue to tweak MP bugs and enhance MP play in SOW, fixes which can all be incorporated into an SOW2, than focus on opening up maps. That will only serve to undermine their efforts and hinder the success of an SOW2 release. And the fact of the matter is that if SOW2 isn't a financial success, than NSD will no longer release games and we will have alot more to complain about than opening up maps.

[Hancock the Superb]

I've got two cents that aren't worth very much anymore.

First, I think it would be beneficial for NSD to make opening map-making a priority. Not with a map making editor, but just the ability to manually edit the maps. This release would satiate modders and gamers, and perhaps find NSD a few new artists to help out as the company (assuming at this point) expands.

In light of this, NSD should continue to release the map-packs. The NSD map quality is the highest achievable for the most part, and the average modder cannot make the artwork that NSD provides. (No disrespect to modders). This almost forces everyone to buy the map packs, because they are far superior to modded maps in quality.

To sum it up: I think NSD should go for the high quality product that modders cannot replicate.

Not trying to step on anyones toes, though.

[JC Edwards]

People just do not seem to GET IT from the NSD side. Damn us for giving all of you just a great game......that's apparently not enough.......It seems it's always about everyone else and damn the Company/Developers/Team.

Most of us do whatever we can to support NSD. Asking for the ability to make/mod maps is not damning NSD. Garnier is trying to make the argument that it would be good for NSD to unlock map editing.

I know you edited the last line from your original post........but I would like to point out, Sir, is that I will say "people", rather than point fingers at individuals.

And I more than "get it" KG - I've been with Norb on this for the past 3 years and will continue to be alongside him for as long as he wants to keep this going.

Sarge

[NY Cavalry]

Garnier is a highly creative and ambitious individual. Who here can fault him for wanting to do more with this game. If he asks 10 or 20 times what is the issue. It may seem tiring to keep addressing the question, but it was asked again. There is nothing wrong with asking or discussion in dialogue.


Norb will do what he thinks best. If the business model says that map release needs to wait then so be it. This is a great game and I have respect for what he has achieved here. He probably could make more money making a Napoleon game than civil war game, but I am glad he made a civil war game. This whole issue is a simple one that has turned a little ugly.


Developers need gamers and gamers need developers.

[Little Powell]

I think everyone would agree that we want more maps to play SOW with.
In the absence of that, even a random map generator would be cool (and the GCM version is ok to play with).

The problem with this is that unless there are going to be radical improvements to the game engine, the only thing drawing more people to a sequel will be new maps/campaign scenarios. One only has to look to the fact that modding activity is still ongoing in TC2M and despite the addition of MP to SOW, alot of TC2M players never made the jump to SOW.

I bought the Pipe Creek maps because I felt it was a fair price and I have had hours of enjoyment from SOW - and factoring in the time I have played SOW with purchase cost, I feel I am way ahead in the cost/benefit analysis. That being said, from what I recall, many MP players did not initially buy the Pipe's Creek Map/scenarios on principle. That is fine and their choice. However, I find it ironic that when given the opportunity to obtain more maps, etc, that players did not buy and instead we get a thread clamoring for the maps to be opened up.

From a pure self-interest standpoint, why should NSD open map modding and limit their ability to market SOW2 or whatever the sequel will be? Whether we like it or not, economics will dictate whether NSD launches a sequel. I am sure if Norb was a billionaire and money wasn't an issue, that he would release the maps. That being said, given the amount of time and effort put in by the NSD team, they are entitled to enjoy some of the fruits of the their labor. And to be honest, if I was running NSD, I wouldn't open the maps either. Once you loose control of the maps and the game engine, there is nothing left to move forward with.

From a purely MP standpoint it would be great, but the fact of the matter is that MP players unfortunately make up only a small minority proportion of the greater SOW playing community. If it was technically possible, I would love to see NSD open up the map mods just for MP play. That would allow for mods and drive interest in MP play but wouldn't stagnate future SP interest (of course I am sure there would be a SP backlash to this!!! :laugh:)

As that is unlikely, I would much rather have NSD continue to tweak MP bugs and enhance MP play in SOW, fixes which can all be incorporated into an SOW2, than focus on opening up maps. That will only serve to undermine their efforts and hinder the success of an SOW2 release. And the fact of the matter is that if SOW2 isn't a financial success, than NSD will no longer release games and we will have alot more to complain about than opening up maps.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with this post.

Guys, don't forget that the maps will be opened eventually.. Norb has said it many times before. We just have a few more plans to tackle before that day comes.

[KG_Soldier]

People just do not seem to GET IT from the NSD side. Damn us for giving all of you just a great game......that's apparently not enough.......It seems it's always about everyone else and damn the Company/Developers/Team.

Most of us do whatever we can to support NSD. Asking for the ability to make/mod maps is not damning NSD. Garnier is trying to make the argument that it would be good for NSD to unlock map editing.

I know you edited the last line from your original post........but I would like to point out, Sir, is that I will say "people", rather than point fingers at individuals.

And I more than "get it" KG - I've been with Norb on this for the past 3 years and will continue to be alongside him for as long as he wants to keep this going.

Sarge

Yes. . . I put why I edited it in the reason for editing box. And sorry, Mad One, but in responding to your attack on those of us who "do not get it," it would be somewhat silly to to say you "people" do not get it when I meant you. No one in the MP community has damned anyone or anything about NSD. In fact, we are its most fervent supporters. Garnier's whole argument is that unlocking the maps would be good for NSD, not that NSD is evil for not doing so.

That said, I see where Norb was coming from regarding Garnier's post hoc argument: if modding is bad for NSD, I should take down the GCM. And Garnier should have left that bit out. But nothing else in his post comes close to being negative in regards to NSD.

[Garnier]

@LP/Willard
So your opinion is that, at present, the modding community hurts the business and must be restrained. I don't understand how at a certain time, say two years from now or whenever, this could change.. but eh, don't suppose I ever will. No hard feelings, everyone has their opinion.

@Soldier
Well I mean, if modding is bad for NSD then it sort of follows that the mods are a problem. But I don't believe the first part obviously.

p.s, don't worry that I obsess about this too much. I spend long stretches working on other stuff. It's only when I come back to SOW and realize there's nothing for me to do.

[Willard]

@LP/Willard
So your opinion is that, at present, the modding community hurts the business and must be restrained. I don't understand how at a certain time, say two years from now or whenever, this could change.. but eh, don't suppose I ever will. No hard feelings, everyone has their opinion.

@Solider
Well I mean, if modding is bad for NSD then it sort of follows that the mods are a problem. But I don't believe the first part obviously.

p.s, don't worry that I obsess about this too much. I spend long stretches working on other stuff. It's only when I come back to SOW and realize there's nothing for me to do.

Garnier -

I don't know the ins/outs of the NSD business model and don't claim to. That being said, from my perspective, there are some basic core components (which I have oversimplified) that make up the SOW game:

#1 - coding/game engine
#2 - maps
#3 - graphics/sounds
#4 - OOBs/scenarios

Of the four listed above, modders can make changes to #3 and #4 basically without any limitations. There are some small changes that can be done to #1 (tweaking rifle ranges/arty ability) and to #2 (as demonstrated by your random map mod).

Out of those 4 listed above, the two most important factors is the game engine itself and the maps. Those are the pure guts of the game - the other issues are just chrome. Additionally, those two factors are what is going to keep players coming back down the road. Once you give up control over those factors, there is no reason for players to buy SOW2.

You still have failed to answer the fundamental question: why should NSD give you, as the modder, the ability to mod say an Antietam or Chancellorsville map - especially if they plan on expanding to one of those battles in the future? They have invested all the time and money to develop the game engine. Why should they let you jump the gun and develop an Antietam map, OOBs and scenarios, thereby taking money out of their pocket from a possible expansion pack?

When you purchased SOW, you purchased a game with a set number of scenarios, OOBs, maps, etc, for the Battle of Gettysburg. It wasn't a purchase that required NSD to give you complete control to mod all aspects of the game. Many other companies in the wargaming business do the same thing - John Tiller has a similar business model and been releasing battles/campaigns with the same game engine + minor tweaks for years.

The issue isn't about "restraining" modders, but NSD protecting their product line and possible future profits. I tremendously respect your modding abilities - I do not and will never have your ability to program. Although I disagree with some of your tweaks (artillery in particular but that is limited somewhat by the engine as well), many of your additions are great and make MP a heck of alot easier and more fun to play. NSD should seriously consider incorporating some of those changes into a future SOW2 release.

That being said, I don't think NSD owes us anything more than what we paid for. Additionally, I think your tremendous modding abilities and focus have blurred you from the economic realities driving an indie dev company's game development. NSD isn't EA releasing TW, so comparing the two are apples and oranges. The margin of error (the difference between making a profit or closing shop) in the niche wargaming market is extremely narrow. EA probably sold more TW games on the day of release than NSD sold total to date of SOW. EA can afford to open the game up for modders because they have a huge development studio cranking out title after title. The reality is that isn't a viable business model for NSD and it would be naive to think otherwise.

The only thing I can add is that if you feel this passionate, reach out to NSD and offer your abilities as a team member - why mod when you can provide a valuable contribution to the dev team? As several team members indicated above, they are always looking for volunteers.

Regards,

Willard

[Beef Stu]

With map modding available people who would have never looked at this game will suddenly have a use for it. with map modding available people will still have to purchase the game to use this feature . now your open to a bigger market not just us civil war geeks. cash the checks and drop SOW 2.0 on us sometime down the line. or is what we see here the limit of interest in the possibilities of this game engine?

I'm totally not displeased with whats available but i purchased this game for the MP campaigning so map modding is what i'm waiting for. doesn't stop me or anyone else that play GCM every night.

Do what you need to do NSD. hopefully most of us will still be waiting.