Suggestion from the MP community

[kg_sspoom]

I am no modder, I couldnt mod maps if the code was opened, nor would I have the time to do so if I could.
That being said I would love to have new maps to play Multiplayer games with.
BUT Online games can be challenging enough to get started as it is. I dont really want another unknown variable that will make it more time consuming/frustrating to get games started and running stable for the full game time. I know Garnier would do a great job with making maps which would problably run fine from the start, but what about others?

I dont want to lose another evening trying to host a game with a "mod map" that isnt up to Norbsoft/Garnier levels of quality. Nor should others.

As frustrating as getting in a game at times can be it is 20X worse for the few of us that host.
I personally would rather see a better way of creating non GCM sandbox games built into SOW itself, as many of us like to occasionally use stock/historical units and we have become spoiled by GCMs user friendly way of selecting how many VLs we want and assigning timers and points to them.
Plus this would make it more flexible to the people who havent/wont adopted GCM as a
great way to play.
Also the random assigning of teams in GCM is a huge plus to keeping games competitive.

Im all for doing what it takes to keep Norbsoft producing killer games like they have in SOW
and before that in the TC series. Which although I played (TCBR and TC2M) no amount of mods/maps would
keep me interested because I wanted multiplayer.
For the amount of enjoyment I have gotten from SOW I personally have no problem
paying for the occasional map pack because I want newer and more Improved versions of SOW.
I have it on 2 computers both are running pipe creek maps and I have a hard copy sitting on the shelf.
I still think I got a good deal.
But Im an older guy who has been working 35 years I likely have more mad money for games than most,
plus my wife supports my gaming addiction because it keeps me out of the bars =)

My personal MP suggestion would be for Garnier to put the Pipe Creek maps in his GCM programs so that those or us that did buy them have the option to use them with the GCM campain. Maybe also promoting some sales that might help Norbsoft make the next game or even the ability to get this game in a bigger market.
I would even buy them for him to put in.

Or maybe Norbsoft could work out something with Garnier to let him try some map editing for his GCM mod? But not for general release? as a Test Bed?

Anything that anyone in the MP community has the ability to do, that can possibly help this Online community grow should try to do it.

Before GCM I spent problably 10 times the time I spent playing learning how to make edit OOBs so we would have balanced structured OOBs to use in games. I never used a spreadsheet program in my life when I started so it was a bitch. Lots of them failed a first but eventually a bunch of them worked out pretty good for us. We problably had a lot of early games crash because I didnt really know what I was doing since I was learning it on the fly. We (the MP comunity as a whole not just those of us that play mostly GCM) dont need any unproven maps out there muddling up the field as Norbsoft continues to try and make the game run better and produce the next gen SOW.

That said, I feel that modders have the abilty to both help and hurt the community.

I have seen modders do awesome thing in alot of different games, This game included with Garnier doing awesome stuff with his work.
But if it has the potential to hurt a small independent company like Norbsofts abilty to put out this level of a product in such a small niche market as ours Im more than willing to wait till its the right time. I have no Idea when the right time is. I dont code or pay Norbsofts bills.

If this is rambling I apoligize its late and I have been traveling all day and I hate flying.

[Garnier]

@ Willard

No, they don't owe us anything -- I would never suggest that. My suggestion is that if the community could produce more content, it would bring in enough new customers that it would outweigh the few who would not pay for more content because of mods. Of course all we can do is speculate, and look at other games for examples.

John Tiller has a similar business model and been releasing battles/campaigns with the same game engine + minor tweaks for years.

Actually, as far as I know his games are fully open for modding, including maps. He's got a strong modding community. He still sells new releases because he has a large customer base. Even people who play mods buy new releases because they're more, quality content.

Perhaps a better comparison than CA/TW would be the Mount & Blade series I mentioned. Another one-man show originally. Their business model was the opposite; open everything up while the game was in beta to grow the community as much as possible, and keep producing titles. Again, this is just one example.

I would be interested if you can find any examples of small developers who followed the 'keep-things-closed' approach.

[Little Powell]

I would be interested if you can find any examples of small developers who followed the 'keep-things-closed' approach.

I didn't know John Tillers maps were open for modding. I've never seen a user made map for that series.. Correct me if I'm wrong.

We aren't keeping things closed. Just the maps. And again, we plan to open them.

The Take Command series kept the maps closed until they were ready to be opened. We will do the same.

[Davinci]

My personal opinion of all of this is that the maps will not be opened for at least another twelve to eighteen months from this date.

NSD is probably already in the early stages of developing a newer game engine based off of the previous engine, which will probably change the current engine from version 6.8 to version 8.0.

There will probably be at least two more expansion packs released in this time frame, and early testing for the newer game will begin in roughly a year.

After the newer game is released, and the sells reach a certain point, Norb will then, and only then, probably release a patch that will unlock these maps.

The newer game will probably be incompatible with this game, which will render both versions incompatible with each other, meaning that no maps from this game will work on the newer version.[/b]

As, Norb has stated, this is his game, and company, and he should be able to run it in any way that benefits him, and company. Anyone that doesn’t like it should go off and build their own game.

He used that same statement before on the other forum, several years ago. I also completely agree with this statement, this is his product!

Why , not just state this, give a rough estimate or a rough time-frame, and clear the air once and for all. When we hear that Norb has stated that he is going to release the maps at the appropriate time, that really doesn’t reveal too much information.

Yes , I know that he absolutely hates to give any type of time-frame, I have heard that multiple times, before.

But , considering that this is his forum, we only hear about another game engine from an interview, and not directly from him. I find that sort of strange, that that would be deemed a secret to keep from the masses.

A little bit of clarity from the top-source would in my opinion prevent a lot of rumors and help to avoid such discussions and topics as this!

Edit , I would also like to add that personally I don’t really care if the maps are ever unlocked, the maps are already some-what moddable, and I can play on the same map for six months. But, that’s not really what this debate is about!

davinci

[KG_Soldier]

What the MP community needs is a random map generator, like the old Combat Mission games. We don't need to be able to make maps for historical battles. I can understand why NSD doesn't want that.

[Hancock the Superb]

I'm not sure if this was suggested or not:

What people are asking for is this: Random Maps.

Perhaps at some point in time, NSD will work to create a random map generator for battles. This benefits SP, MP and everyone. Charge $10 and everyone is happy.

Obviously, the coding would be impressive to do this (extremely impressive to coordinate it in MP) and would take a bit of time. However, in terms of money-making, my guess is that this should be moved towards the top of the priority list in the buisness model.

Keep up the great work NSD.

I shall continue to pour my money into an game that provides some of my entertainment.

[Beef Stu]

if the next game has limited modding and you give this game all the capabilities aren't you worries people will overlook your new content for something older they can do anything with. and for that matter we may be right back to this point if the next one isn't fully moddable.You may come out with something better but as long as one arm is still tied behind its back some people will overlook it to make your older game what they want.

Totally differant game,Civilizations, fully moddable and people buy the new releases because they are fully moddable and better then the last. Hell they want you to mod it into new and differant game. I bought this game because i wanted a civil war game. how many people out there want to buy this because they want to make it a nappy game? or roman or zulu or Space clowns game for all i know.Lets be honest, this genre of games isn't popular when compared others. so why limit the focus ?

I'm sure i haven't pointed out anything you haven't thought of. Personally i think its one step forward with a new game and 2 steps back if you wait till then to mod maps for this one. This is not my business so whatever i just don't get it. As i said before do what you need to do NSD.

[Davinci]

I would hope that the newer game will accomplish what this game is some-what lacking in, better frames-per-second . This is one of the biggest complaints, and probably the biggest reason for losing so many members to other games.

Better map terrain, and larger maps. The combat aspect of the game is far better than the previous game, so I doubt that too much will change in that aspect.

Also, as pointed out above by KG Soldier a random map generator for the Multi Players, considering that these guys play a big part in advertising the game to attract new players.

I would also like to see a single player campaign built into the next release, with real time day and night cycles, but I’ll be happy with just the basics, larger maps , and better fps pertaining to the single player aspect of the game.

So, why would anybody pay for a newer game if the previous game has the ability to mod the maps, the newer game just has to do everything else faster and better?

davinci

[andonai]

In my humble opinion the best decision a small development team can make is to work hand in hand with the community right from the beginning. A small team means longer development times and a limited amount on projects it can work on simultaniously.

So it´s a rational decision to give the community the tools to feed their hunger for new content on their own, while the development team can concentrate on improving the gamecore, fixing bugs, implementing new features etc.
And most importantly, working on the next title.

A well satisfied community is an active community and in most cases a growing one. And if there is enough new content to play with, the community is still active when the next title in a series comes out and that means the dev´s will have a solid costumer base.

This concept worked very well for TaleWorlds and their Mount and Blade series, for CA and their Total War series (till Medieval 2), Valve and Half-Life and even for Slitherine and their Commander and Field of Glory Series or Tripwire Interactive and their Red Orchestra series.

By the way, why not selling SoW via Matrix Games if possible? They have titles like "War in the East", "Field of Glory", "Panzer Corps" and many more "Armchair General" titles in their shop list. It´s a well known place in the "Hobby General" Community to buy solid Wargames and should fit SoW better than Gamers Gate or Steam.

[WriterJWA]

In my humble opinion the best decision a small development team can make is to work hand in hand with the community right from the beginning. A small team means longer development times and a limited amount on projects it can work on simultaniously.

So it´s a rationl decision to give the community the tools to feed their hunger for new content on their own, while the development team can concentrate on improving the gamecore, fixing bugs, implementing new features etc.
And most importantly, working on the next title.

Well said, sir!