Valve says Linux is more viable for games than Windows 8

Here you can talk about whatever floats your boat. Your favorite movie, sports team, etc. If it's a little racey, I suggest you post in R&R, otherwise we'll move it for you.
Flanyboy
Reactions:
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Valve says Linux is more viable for games than Windows 8

Post by Flanyboy »


The Windows store will replace them all, even if Steam tries to support Windows 8, people likely would never download it if it was there. At least that's what Windows hopes for.
Do you really believe this?
Yes I do. By putting a built in Microsoft store on Windows 8 Windows gives itself a TREMENDOUS advantage. Why is anyone going to go to another source to buy their games? There are ways you could theoretically get Applications on an Android phone from a place other than the Android Market, in fact Amazon introduced an entirely second store front but NO ONE used it very much until Amazon started making their own devices that ONLY provided the Amazon Market. The convince factor and the fact that the store front is already there will make it cost prohibitive for companies to market their games anywhere but in the Microsoft store. Microsoft is doing what Apple has done here for awhile on their iOS devices and while it certainly is a good "Business" move it will mean less competition in the software market and will give Microsoft tremendous leverage over what software is made and published where they have never had this power before. In the past development was largely open and free, now Microsoft has forced itself into the market and there isn't anything anyone else can do that is likely cost effective to compete with that. It wont have a big impact right away but remember this, and lets see in 5-10 years how many Gamers Gates, or Steams or other publishers are left, and lets also analyze the health of the indie market. I'm worried by lumping everyone in the same store more indie developers will emerge but they'll all get lost in the shuffle and Microsoft will only promote the big guys so less and less indie games will be produced. I could be wrong on this last point but that's my fear.

And you say you don't care about Microsoft getting a 30% commission on any Store sale. I do... Not because it's unfair, but because that's a huge amount of money that use to go to developers, publishers, and artists that now means there is less profitability to EVERY copy of a game is sold. That will push developers to abandon publishers or vise versa and will harm the industry as a whole. Traditionally Microsoft has let the developers and publishers do their own thing, now in an attempt to model the Apple Store they are going to limit everyone's choices and to me its far more threatening than what Apple has done because Microsoft's market share is so much bigger and traditionally has been more supportive to software and game development.

I'll make an odd comparison here. Imagine if your local liquor store was owned by Miller or Bud and it was the only store in town, sure another town 20 miles away has a independent store but the one right there in your local area is there so why are you going to drive 20 miles to go get the stuff from somewhere else? Some people will be most will not, now imagine how much shelf space would get allocated to craft breweries?

You can see the conflict of interest in a situation like that... In fact it is for this very reason that it is against the law for a Brewery to own a Liquor Store, this law is in place to keep competition possible. I'm not saying its a perfect comparison but its fairly similar. I am not saying there should be a law against this, but it is one thing that worries me because there really isn't any viable competition since Apple already does the same thing.

The whole concept of the OS manufacture determining who gets listed in their storefront that is pre built into the OS really bugs me and runs counter to the freedom and openness that the tech industry has for years promoted. I'm not worried that I wont be able to get 3rd party software, but I am worried more about the implications this has for the software industry as a whole. Closed markets are not a good thing for the industry in my opinion.
Last edited by Flanyboy on Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Michael Slaunwhite
Reactions:
Posts: 4358
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:15 am

Re: Valve says Linux is more viable for games than Windows 8

Post by Michael Slaunwhite »


The Windows store will replace them all, even if Steam tries to support Windows 8, people likely would never download it if it was there. At least that's what Windows hopes for.
Do you really believe this?
Yes I do. By putting a built in Microsoft store on Windows 8 Windows gives itself a TREMENDOUS advantage. Why is anyone going to go to another source to buy their games? There are ways you could theoretically get Applications on an Android phone from a place other than the Android Market, in fact Amazon introduced an entirely second store front but NO ONE used it very much until Amazon started making their own devices that ONLY provided the Amazon Market. The convince factor and the fact that the store front is already there will make it cost prohibitive for companies to market their games anywhere but in the Microsoft store. Microsoft is doing what Apple has done here for awhile on their iOS devices and while it certainly is a good "Business" move it will mean less competition in the software market and will give Microsoft tremendous leverage over what software is made and published where they have never had this power before. In the past development was largely open and free, now Microsoft has forced itself into the market and there isn't anything anyone else can do that is likely cost effective to compete with that. It wont have a big impact right away but remember this, and lets see in 5-10 years how many Gamers Gates, or Steams or other publishers are left, and lets also analyze the health of the indie market. I'm worried by lumping everyone in the same store more indie developers will emerge but they'll all get lost in the shuffle and Microsoft will only promote the big guys so less and less indie games will be produced. I could be wrong on this last point but that's my fear.

And you say you don't care about Microsoft getting a 30% commission on any Store sale. I do... Not because it's unfair, but because that's a huge amount of money that use to go to developers, publishers, and artists that now means there is less profitability to EVERY copy of a game is sold. That will push developers to abandon publishers or vise versa and will harm the industry as a whole. Traditionally Microsoft has let the developers and publishers do their own thing, now in an attempt to model the Apple Store they are going to limit everyone's choices and to me its far more threatening than what Apple has done because Microsoft's market share is so much bigger and traditionally has been more supportive to software and game development.

I'll make an odd comparison here. Imagine if your local liquor store was owned by Miller or Bud and it was the only store in town, sure another town 20 miles away has a independent store but the one right there in your local area is there so why are you going to drive 20 miles to go get the stuff from somewhere else? Some people will be most will not, now imagine how much shelf space would get allocated to craft breweries?

You can see the conflict of interest in a situation like that... In fact it is for this very reason that it is against the law for a Brewery to own a Liquor Store, this law is in place to keep competition possible. I'm not saying its a perfect comparison but its fairly similar. I am not saying there should be a law against this, but it is one thing that worries me because there really isn't any viable competition since Apple already does the same thing.

The whole concept of the OS manufacture determining who gets listed in their storefront that is pre built into the OS really bugs me and runs counter to the freedom and openness that the tech industry has for years promoted. I'm not worried that I wont be able to get 3rd party software, but I am worried more about the implications this has for the software industry as a whole. Closed markets are not a good thing for the industry in my opinion.
Hi Flanboy.

I do see your point, and I fully agree with it, it does give an unfair advantage too Microsoft for crafting such a service (rather clever for them too do that) but isn't that the nature of capitalism? I think the other businesses who are Microsoft's competition will have to come up with something that can counter this by reorganizing the way they sale their software. I am very sure that if other companies can create something as great as what Microsoft has created, they would do the very same thing.

I personally don't think this will cause other companies to fall off to the wayside simply because people still have a choice where too shop. For me, I disabled the online store in Windows 8 because I don't shop there, just like I don't shop on Steam. I pick up many of my games by visiting, and hunting down good sales, and if I read, or watch something about a game that interests me, I can assure you I will buy it from them. Now with that said of course, for those who own an Xbox 360, and a new console (later on) that Microsoft will be releasing too the public, I think it's Microsoft's right to advertise their software as they see fit, and no other company should ever tell them how, or where to do it.

Developers also have a choice, instead of having Steam, Matrix, Slitherine, and others too promote their hard work. I'm very sure they won't allow themselves to get caught up into the dirty business of who or what is fair, but more likely to go with who can can assure a wider audience, and just because Windows 8 has a store doesn't mean they will go with Microsoft.

I understand your concern Flanboy, and I also want to see things be fair for all, but that is not the nature of this world (unfortunately) especially in the business world (other than the mom, and pop stores which is how I see all independent developers).

Now what worries me more is if Microsoft releases Windows 9, 10 etc which forces you to be online, and have you part of their main Cloud Server then we are talking something serious since the majority of major services are already hooked into cloud servers which scares the bejeepers out of me because then (eventually), all games, patches etc will be fully monitored (gaming industry), hardware will be maintained via the cloud based services, and now we are getting into some very scarey stuff.

Unfortunately Microsoft has introduced the xLive Cloud Server which pretty much binds PC, Tablets, and Consoles, and other devices under one umbrella. I am thankful that an offline account can be made to keep people separate from the server if they choose to do so.

Once more, I know where you are coming from, and I do feel the same way as you which is why I can get a bit angry over Steam.

Take care Flanboy!
User avatar
RebBugler
Reactions:
Posts: 4253
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:51 am
Location: Ouachita Mountains, Arkansas

Re: Valve says Linux is more viable for games than Windows 8

Post by RebBugler »

Found the docudrama, it's the history I knew, although probably hyped up for entertainment standards, still, it backs my statement. Just watched it to check my memory, I was pretty close. Forgot that Apple was already successful and kicking butt, and Gates was just coming in on the ground floor, gaining much of his ground in the computer world through his genius of BS, and keeping smart friends as his colleagues, loyal and assisting with his technical efforts. Also forgot that Apple basically stole the technology from Xerox, but Jobs' genius took it to new heights, just to be outdone expansion wise by Bill and his boys as they already had IBM in their pockets...leading to the mainstream OS.

Cool thing, looking up this video got me in on some great new plug ins and app for viewing online videos, just hope during the various downloads I didn't swallow any crap that will haunt my computer later. Warning, a head's up, they try during the install processes, watch every window and uncheck those nuisance apps that they cleverly disguise. So far, a great video app, and so far, FREE. :)

http://veehd.com/video/3191842_PIRATES- ... Collection
Bugles & Flags Gettysburg - Toolbar, Flags, Scenarios, and More...
Flanyboy
Reactions:
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Valve says Linux is more viable for games than Windows 8

Post by Flanyboy »

I think we have different definitions of the world steal. Taking someone else s idea and improving upon it seems to be your idea of theft. I don't think that's a fair way to classify the tech industry as all companies take from each other and evolve.

Apple didn't invent the smart phone, they didn't invest the touch screen, heck even the form factor and appearance of the first iPhone was almost identical to a previous Nokia phone (it was either Nokia or LG) but they built a innovative OS on top of that.

Some people would say that Google stole the OS to create Android but once again I would disagree as they are very different if you actually get into it.

Then of course Apple took the notification drop down bar android used and implemented it in one of their more recent updates.

The problems we have today is that companies are suing over things they shouldn't be able to sue over. TECHNICALLY software isn't able to be patented, only copy written, so if I develop code that does the exact same thing you already did but develop it on my own and don't use your code it's not illegal. Judges and companies seem to have forgotten this and its costing a lot of innovation. The tech industry survives upon taking someone else s idea and improving upon it. Without Android today iOS would likely not be nearly as reliable and good as it is today, and vise verse.
Last edited by Flanyboy on Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
RebBugler
Reactions:
Posts: 4253
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:51 am
Location: Ouachita Mountains, Arkansas

Re: Valve says Linux is more viable for games than Windows 8

Post by RebBugler »

I think we have different definitions of the world steal. Taking someone else s idea and improving upon it seems to be your idea of theft. I don't think that's a fair way to classify the tech industry as all companies take from each other and evolve.

Apple didn't invent the smart phone, they didn't invest the touch screen, heck even the form factor and appearance of the first iPhone was almost identical to a previous Nokia phone (it was either Nokia or LG) but they built a innovative OS on top of that.

Some people would say that Google stole the OS to create Android but once again I would disagree as they are very different if you actually get into it.

Then of course Apple took the notification drop down bar android used and implemented it in one of their more recent updates.

The problems we have today is that companies are suing over things they shouldn't be able to sue over. TECHNICALLY software isn't able to be patented, only copy written, so if I develop code that does the exact same thing you already did but develop it on my own and don't use your code it's not illegal. Judges and companies seem to have forgotten this and its costing a lot of innovation. The tech industry survives upon taking someone else s idea and improving upon it. Without Android today iOS would likely not be nearly as reliable and good as it is today, and vise verse.
Well, maybe I was swayed by the term Pirates, so I'm not alone. But I don't disagree with your thoughts here, especially, lawsuits gone wild.

My beef is with Microsoft, it has been since I was forced to move from Mac to MS just to have access to necessary apps and games, Mac was just too limited. In comparison, the MS OS is clunky and not intuitive, and, with it's most recent releases, it treats the consumer like a pirate. When I had the evaluation demo for OS7, and it made me ask permission to edit notepad, I almost puked...I'm still with XP, mainly, cause it trusts me...clunky, but at least I'm not seen as a potential pirate with it.

Why is MS going this route? All I want is a decent OS that adequately stores stuff and installs/runs applications and peripherals efficiently.

I jumped into this thread because Michael was praising MS so avidly, and you, like me, see MS for what it is, a monopoly that is gaining power more and more and eliminating healthy competition. By healthy, I mean for the consumer, so we have choices, and choices mean options, spreading the wealth and keeping prices fair. And hopefully, eventually force the MS totalitarian types to conform, and improve their procedures and products, for the good of the consumer...their true bread and butter.
Bugles & Flags Gettysburg - Toolbar, Flags, Scenarios, and More...
Michael Slaunwhite
Reactions:
Posts: 4358
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:15 am

Re: Valve says Linux is more viable for games than Windows 8

Post by Michael Slaunwhite »

@Flanboy.

You know you are right. I have been looking through all of the free apps (not too mention the cheap prices of the software already on there) that Microsoft is offering so far, and there are hundreds of free apps alone, and it's still being filled by companies that are going to pile on with this.

Flanboy... I can honestly see why so many people are afraid of this. It's like watching Walmart come to town... The smaller guys just will not be able to fight this.

I'm wrong for defending MS on this, it is damaging. For the consumer it's a great thing, for the software companies that live or die by what they sale online are going to suffer.

Now I do have to say though since I'm a geek at heart, I think what MS has done is simply brilliant, and ingenious. That is my techie side talking, for my gut... It's a bad thing all around.

Sad to say, this sort of thing is dangerous, and you Flanboy are right in spreading your concerns about MS's online store, and Thank You for doing so.
Last edited by Michael Slaunwhite on Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Flanyboy
Reactions:
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Valve says Linux is more viable for games than Windows 8

Post by Flanyboy »

@Flanboy.

You know you are right. I have been looking through all of the free apps (not too mention the cheap prices of the software already on there) that Microsoft is offering so far, and there are hundreds of free apps alone, and it's still being filled by companies that are going to pile on with this.

Flanboy... I can honestly see why so many people are afraid of this. It's like watching Walmart come to town... The smaller guys just will not be able to fight this.

I'm wrong for defending MS on this, it is damaging. For the consumer it's a great thing, for the software companies that live or die by what they sale online are going to suffer.

Now I do have to say though since I'm a geek at heart, I think what MS has done is simply brilliant, and ingenious. That is my techie side talking, for my gut... It's a bad thing all around.

Sad to say, this sort of thing is dangerous, and you Flanboy are right in spreading your concerns about MS's online store, and Thank You for doing so.
To be fair this isn't a MS creation, it's another example of Microsoft designing something along the lines of what Apple has already done. The only difference is Apple tends to charge a much higher price and that keeps the majority of people out of the market.

Reb I like Apple but I also like MS for stuff. Apple is a reliable and friendly UI, MS however seems more versatile imho and gives you more customization options.

I cant speak with as much certainty on the PC OS but it's certainly true that in the mobile OS world, Apple OS is much more friendly in it's UI is superb and the OS is designed very reliably, however it does treat it's users more like children, Android for example has a lot more options for customization and is more friendly for people who are interested in altering the way the device works. I fear that is the route the PC industry is going. Apple mobile OS is probably better for the masses but I don't like the limitations it puts on people who want to have total control over their devices, I fear Microsoft is taking a similar approach with the PC world.
Michael Slaunwhite
Reactions:
Posts: 4358
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:15 am

Re: Valve says Linux is more viable for games than Windows 8

Post by Michael Slaunwhite »

Hi.

Just poking about with Windows 8, and something not so good occured to me about Steam.

Valve is now telling you the consumer what Operating System they will support meaning if they do decide never to support Windows 8, you gamers out there are shit out of luck. Sure buy Windows 8, but we won't support it, or you... Why don't you try Linux, obviously that OS has a brighter future for gaming than Windows.

Has society become that lazy that they are so willing to put their future in the hands of a company like Valve? Is it that difficult to download your own patches, and install them? For the sake of saving a couple of dollars, are you willing to give away your control over what you purchase?

Apparently so...

When you sleep with the Devil, don't expect roses, and a box a chocolates in the morning. You get what what valve tells you will get, and that is it.

I personally would be wary of Valve since they now hold a very large sum of gamers balls out there who depend on Valve to play their games, and Valve knows it, and they are telling you that you are not welcome if you use Windows 8, and you are too only use Windows 7, and that is it.

So how does it feel to have a company tell you what you can, or cannot use? I can play all my games, I don't need permission to install them, and I don't need permission to play them, and I don't have to ask permission to buy another operating system just so I can play my games.

I am rather surprised you don't see developers mouthing off about Valve breaking contract agreements that their games (developers) will be supported for all Windows OS's since they are created for Windows by Steam.... Hmmmm, interesting how the developers are just trotting along not saying a word.

better yet, hey developers, advertise your warez on Microsoft's Store... And that is what I think MS is waiting for.

Valve have shot themselves in the foot on their rant, and they may pay dearly for it in the coming months. Valve wants to keep their choke hold on their customer base, and they will do everything to keep you in their control.
Last edited by Michael Slaunwhite on Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
RebBugler
Reactions:
Posts: 4253
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:51 am
Location: Ouachita Mountains, Arkansas

Re: Valve says Linux is more viable for games than Windows 8

Post by RebBugler »

Anyway, that is all I have to say about this matter.
Six posts ago... :laugh:
Bugles & Flags Gettysburg - Toolbar, Flags, Scenarios, and More...
Michael Slaunwhite
Reactions:
Posts: 4358
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:15 am

Re: Valve says Linux is more viable for games than Windows 8

Post by Michael Slaunwhite »

Anyway, that is all I have to say about this matter.
Six posts ago... :laugh:
Haaaaaa, yeah I know. :laugh:
Last edited by Michael Slaunwhite on Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply