New sprite 'layers' system and fog generally

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Saddletank
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New sprite 'layers' system and fog generally

Post by Saddletank »

Image

As you can see the new sprite layers fog away at different rates giving the peculiar effect in the circled area. Can the fog/distance instructions please be reviewed?

I saw that the Gen1 map has no horizon fog at all. Buildings and trees pop into view at the max distance instead of slowly emerging from a haze-like effect which SoW:GB did. The lack of fog also gives a crisp horizon which shows the jagged draw-distance edge, so I think there's a few good reasons to introduce a distance fog on all maps.

Finally please correct these very strange Hanoverian flags! I know we have gaps in our knowledge of what some Hanoverian units carried but its not hard to make educated guesses based on the flag data we do have.

I saw a British general having a Merchant Marine Red Ensign flag. A simple national flag will do for generals (British/Dutch-Belgian/Hanoverian/Brunswick/Nassau/whatever), there is no need to introduce these curious fantasy flags. Your grognard fans will only tell you about them loudly!
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RebBugler
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Re: New sprite 'layers' system and fog generally

Post by RebBugler »

The Hanoverian flags were a difficult search. The one depicted in the screenshot was the King's Colors established in 1815 through several decades. I decided to use it for this reason. The red one with the British canton and horse was taken from what appeared to be a reliable source and was said to be carried at WL. I would never resort to displaying marine or fantasy flags. Cite your sources or sei still. I'll listen to your so-called grognards as they present the facts.
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Saddletank
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Re: New sprite 'layers' system and fog generally

Post by Saddletank »

Its hard to cite a source for something that doesn't exist. The warflag site you used lacks ANY Hanoverian flags. The Flag Dude has some. Just Google that. The red flag with the Union jack in the upper lead quarter is the modern merchant marine flag of Great Britain and has been for 200 years. Not sure why I need to cite a source for that. Never seen such a thing on any Napoleonic battlefield.

Can you please give your sources for the flag pictured above and the red flag we're discussing?

Hanoverian flag links:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=251210

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=146046

http://www.napoleon-series.org/cgi-bin/ ... d;id=88310

http://www.warlordgames.com/forum/viewt ... 14&t=16083

http://miniatureminions.blogspot.co.uk/ ... el/Hanover

The thing you've created looks like something Henry V might have carried at Agincourt. You only have to have a passing knowledge of early 19th C flag styling to know such a device was never a battle flag. It probably hung from town halls and such.

Honestly guys, we appreciate your team is small and has limited resources but you have a large and knowledgable customer base - you could have raised this as a request during development on your forums and had this question settled within a week.
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Grog
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Re: New sprite 'layers' system and fog generally

Post by Grog »

Here's some produced by Warlord games, I believe.

Mostly conjectural but some based on research that was claimed to be good. Its a while since I looked into it, now.

I considered drawing some up to send on for Randy to work his magic but I thought there might be some copyright issues and my modding days are rare, lately.

Perhaps later

:)
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RebBugler
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Re: New sprite 'layers' system and fog generally

Post by RebBugler »

Thanks guys

Those links had more questions than answers, and definitely nothing definitive. The fourth link was the best but the guy building the miniatures still made up what he thought the flags would look like. The screenshots were nice but from what I've researched the full British flag was in no way accurate, Hanoverians were die hard Germans and only allied with the Britain because they hated Napoleon more. If a change is in order the closest I could could get would be these 1760 flags:
The attachment HanovarianFlags1760.jpg is no longer available
I'm thinking these patterns with black backgrounds might represent 1815 the best according to the fourth link cited.

Still, if you google search 'Hanoverian flag' (Images for Hanoverian flag) you see and can read about the flag images that I used for the present WL representations. They represented Hanover during this era, mainly before and after, but weren't fantasy or British marine flags.
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Re: New sprite 'layers' system and fog generally

Post by Little Powell »

I saw that the Gen1 map has no horizon fog at all. Buildings and trees pop into view at the max distance
All the maps are supposed to have the horizon fog, but maybe there's an issue there. I'll take a look.
Saddletank
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Re: New sprite 'layers' system and fog generally

Post by Saddletank »

The fourth link was the best but the guy building the miniatures still made up what he thought the flags would look like.
Yes, this is the problem with Hanover in 1815, very little information survives. I think only 4 actual flags are known to exist or have good descriptions. However basing conjectural flags on what is known we can arrive at some flags that are more plausible than others. I would certainly avoid ANY use of the British Union Flag in their designs; Hanover was a fully independent kingdom separate from the UK with its own long traditions and military history. The link to Britain is only because George III was king of Hanover when he was invited to take up the British throne as well.

Mike's link is a good one with some quite plausible flag designs, as long as we don't use the Union Jack.

This post from a gentleman named Rod MacArthur on the Warlord Games discussion forum (one of my links above) covers what we know in detail. From this and my link above as well as Grog's and your suggested pictures, Reb, I am sure NSD can produce some very acceptable flags:
Well regardless of whether there was any use of Union Jack quadrants on Hanoverian Naval Flags, or other flags in the post Napoleonic period, I am unaware of any evidence of such use on Hanoverian ARMY flags during the Napoleonic Wars.

The pre 1803 Hanoverian Army flags are well documented. The Infantry and Cavalry regiments carried flags with no quadrants, of any sort, on them. The flags had painted central motifs, different for each regiment, surrounded by a complex pattern of wreaths and scrolls. I have illustrations of all of these in UK, but I am currently in Spain.

The KGL carried British pattern colours, because they were units of the British Army. They would have undoubtedly considered themselves as Hanoverians, but this did not affect their status as part of a Foreign Regiment of the British Army (just like the French had Foreign Regiments). A modern parallel would be Ghurka units which are part of the British Army, but the Ghurkas are of course Nepalese.

The new Hanoverian Army carried a number of flags, as illustrated in both Terence Wise and Keith Over's modern books (both of which I have at home). A better, and older source, is an article (I think from the 1930s) by Dr Ottfrieid Neubecker. I attach an extract below (with apologies for my stilted translation):

The Flags and Standards of the Army of the Kingdom of Hanover 1813 - 1820

By Dr. Ottfried Neubecker

After the Dissolution of the Hanoverian Army by the Elb Convention of Artlenburg on 5 July 1803 followed the establishment of the King’s German Legion, whose history Schwertfeger has described in detail. Here also are the Legion’s flags and standards treated in enough detail. Very much less light has however been brought up to now of the history of the flags used by the subsequent King’s Army of Hanover. Although still yet everything could not be placed completely clearly, the results won so far may be laid down nevertheless here.

Already of the 10 "field battalions" which developed in the wars of liberation as basic foundations to the later army beside the King’s German Legion, some flags are well-known, although quite little.

1. Field battalion Roehl (raised in Berlin in April/May 1813), transferred in July as Battalion Langenrehr to Hanoverian services, then became Field Battalion Hoya from1814 - 1816. Its flag was presented by the Princess Wilhelmina of Orange, who was the wife of Prince William of Orange, a princess born in Prussia. It still exists and hangs in the Hanover museum. It is of black material, on both sides are applied different representations in white material. The front shows an upright white sword, behind whose blade a white oak ring lies, on the back stands a large iron cross with the white inscription:

MIT GOTT FÜRS VATERLAND

The 2.6 m long pole, that was painted blue, has the cloth fastened to it with a row of nails as well as a nail ring above and below. Into the 8 cm broad, 15 cm long point an Iron Cross is set. (Inventory Number VML 64221.)

2. Field battalion Calenburg. 120 x 120 cm the large cloth was formerly probably white, it is frayed and shows a dark green wreath, from a laurel and a branch of oak, enclosing an inscription; this is expressed on the back:

ZIEHT AUS
ZUM EDLEN
KAMPF

On the front:

KERT
HEIM MIT
SIEG
GEKROENET

Over the wreath is a very small label: Ao. 1813. The cloth is fastened around the pole with a row nails without braid. The spearpoint of normal form shows the royal monogram without numbers raised on both sides within an oval chain. The cord with the tassel is still present. (Inventory Number VML. 64222.) Figure 1.

3. Completely similarly a further flag is constituted, which has been wrongly attributed to the 8th Hanoverian Dragoons. It shows on the front on red circular ground the Hanoverian horse on a base facing outwards. On a circular ring is inscribed the old Hanoverian motto "QUO FAS ET GLORIA DUCUNT" (whither faith and glory lead) in antique writing. The reverse of the flag carries the classic signature mark of the King GR III under the British king’s crown in the disk, which here however is the base colour of the cloth, the ring surrounding the inscription (apparently formerly been red) is filled with a wave ornamentation. (Inventory Number VML. 64225.) Figure 2.

4. Field Battalion Lauenburg. This battalion had two flags, from which however nothing is known other than that they were presented to it by the Ratzeburger ladies and later brought in April 1813 to Bergedorf. (see the anonymous writing "the Field Battalion Lauenburg", Einbeck 1863, S. 4 and 5.)

5. Field Battalion Bremen. The city of Stade gave a flag to this battalion (after Aktenvermerk).

Also from the Landwehr battalions set up at that time there are still two flags.

1. Landwehr Battalion Gifhorn. The strangely small, originally 100 x of 80 cm size, apparently yellow, frayed cloth, from which only fragments are remaining, a large green oak in the centre, which is still relatively well preserved; also on the front the same silver Saxon Horse still is in quite good condition. From the inscription, but nevertheless the straight word "Gifhorn" is any longer much missing. Around the bar the cloth is fastened by means of a number of nails on a braid. The spearpoint is in an unusual form, however it is similar to that of the flag of the later Brunswick Lieb Battalion (III/92), containing the interwoven cipher of the King Elector George III in filigee work in the form

GR
III

The king’s crown standing over it is normal [ie Hanoverian], not British. Also the round cord with the simple, yellow tassel is still present. The pole is blue. The flag is said to have been at Waterloo in the [musket]fire. That is hardly possible, since in the obviously associated spearpoint (very small) the year 1816 is stamped. (Inventory Number VM. 16986.) Figure 3.

2. Landwehr Battalion Osnabrück. This white 138 x 160 cm, fringed cloth in a good state of preservation shows on both sides a blue inscribed ribbon, wound around a green branch of oak on the left and a green branch of laurel on the right and these two branches form a framework for different representations on each side. The inscription on the front states: "Landwehr Battalion" (above) - "Osnabrück" (below), on the back: "... at Waterloo at the 18th June 1815" (above) - "the patriotic warriors of Osnabrücks grateful citizens" (below in two lines). The front shows in the centre the very wide squashed red coat of arms sign of Hanover with the elegantly drawn current white horse, surrounded by a green palm and a likewise green branch of oak. In former times a crown rested on the sign but only so small outlining traces can be recognized, unfortunately not whether it was the British or the Hanoverian King’s crown. The other side is a large painting of Saint Peter, the city patron of Osnabrück, dressed into a long brown garb and a thrown-back blue cloak. The holy one holds two keys [Osnabrück district badge] in his right hand, while the left one leans on a large silver shield with the black wheel of the city of Osnabrück.

The cloth is fastened to the blue pole without a sleeve and only with a number of nails on a braid. The point, similarly the earlier Hanoverian ones, shows the interwoven signature mark of the king George III. in filagree work in addition, without the ordinal number, in whose place a small six spoked Osnabrück wheel is settled. The cord to this flag, which did not take part in any battles, is only present in half.

I have seen several of these flags in various museums in Hannover, when I spent 11 years in Germany as part of the British Army. I have also seen one which Dr Neubecker does not list, that of Kielmansegge's Field Jaeger, which does appear in one of the books by Wise and Over.

The important point is that none of the pre-1803 Hanoverian Army Flags, nor the new flags of the 1813 Hanoverian Army, nor the two Landwehr ones (even if they are post Waterloo), has a Union Jack quadrant on them. I therefore suggest that there is no evidence for any Hanoverian Army flag to use that pattern, nor of course would any Hanoverian unit use a full Union Flag (as British Regiments did as their King's Colour).
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Grog
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Re: New sprite 'layers' system and fog generally

Post by Grog »

Thanks Randy

BTW, I don't consider myself a 'grognard' either. My 'speciality' is with Nap portraits (they are coming out of my ears :laugh: ). Just wanted to put up some ideas.

Its a tough choice when choosing flags where there is limited research base or where data does not exist. You are not the only one to use the Hanoverian 'Coat of arms' flag to depict their units. A mod for Les Grognards also used such flags. I also agree that a Union Jack based Kings colour was very unlikely to have been carried after also having read the sources which are quoted above.

IMHO the constructive way to go ahead is to open this up for debate and avoid any statements where ones work or opinion is questioned in language which might be interpreted as derogatory. I'm sure there are likely to be some other Napoleonic enthusiasts out there who can also offer information or interpretation on such subjects.

Thanks again for your excellent work for this, the KS Nap mod and all the ACW flag mods.

Grog

PS Its also an honour that you named your Waterloo toolbar after me, I'm touched ;)
Saddletank
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Re: New sprite 'layers' system and fog generally

Post by Saddletank »

Aaaaand.... back on-topic. I mainly wanted to highlight with the screenshot the different fogging/fade properties of the different sprite layers. Hope this is easy to address, a line of floating disembodied torsos is quite an unsettling sight. It'd be worse with just heads! :woohoo:
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