Regimental Frontage and Rifle Range

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ironsight
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Re:Regimental Frontage and Rifle Range

Post by ironsight »

Most of the times i experience unexpected melee charges is when the unit is in the LOS-obstructing woods and suddenly 'spots' the enemy within the charge perimeter or when i TC a unit towards the enemy and it gets a little too close. Although at times a unit will charge in open field. This might be due more to the enemy moving closer or the high morale of the unit rather than open fire distance. I dunno.

I personally think the current open fire range is reasonable considering its a game average, has historical precedence and IMO is somewhat in the realistic ball park. Why not just arbitrarily make the open fire range 300 yards? 500 yards? 1000 yards?...based on what 'some' CW units might have done during the war?

As i said earlier, in the hands of a competent marksman with the right rifle, the right ammo, the right weather conditions and with no life-threatening stresses, a good Enfield or Springfield is certainly capable of reasonable accuracies at 200 and slightly above yards from the bench. Offhand is another thing.
After firing hundreds of minie balls out of my 3-band Enfield on a good day shooting offhand i can get a two inch or so center to center group. I once tried the local 200 yard range one day also offhand, and after a couple hours, 50 or so balls, and a 1/2 pound of powder later, the best i could do was a 12 inch center to center group with a couple flyers and that was after a whole bunch of trial 'n error sight adjustments to even get on the 3 foot by 3 foot target. With more practice...who knows?
Why the big difference from 100 yard to 200 yard accuracy discrepency?

I didn't want to get into ballistic physics but plain and simple the CW minie ball propelled by BP in a CW era rifled musket while it is superior to a smooth bore musket is not the best choice for extreme long range accuracy. In a loose sense analogy these muskets can be thought of obeying the inverse square law, that is the further the ball travels the accuracy drops much greater than as a linear function.

Why is this?
-The CW minie ball although there were variances typically has a large diameter to length ratio...its stubby compared to modern bullets! Right off the bat this means the rifling twist (revolutions/foot) cannot be too aggressive or it would strip the lead right off the ball causing accuracies worse than a smooth bore. Because of this the rifling effect of spinning the bullet like a spirralled football to gain stability is not the best. The official Enfields imported from England used progressive rifling to somewhat compenstate for this.
The famous sniper rifle of the CW was the Whitworth capable of long range accuracy primarily because of its lower dia. to length ratio which made it more stable in flight. If i remember correctly it used a long solid .45 caliber bullet and also hexagonal rifling to help combat poor accuracy due to BP fouling.

-The minie ball has a relatively poor ballistic coefficient compared to modern bullets. This basically means it presents more drag due to air resistance which helps the poor trajectory path. Even if it were possible, minie's would be extremely unstable at supersonic velocities especially considering the relatively slow rifling twist rate it requires.

-Because of its heavy weight, relatively poor ballistic coefficient and slow velocity of under 1000 fps, the CW minie propelled with only the typical charge of 60 grains of 2F BP has an extreme trajectory arc as compared to modern high-power rifles. Think of McDonalds Golden arches. This makes adjusting the elevation setting on the rear sight absolutely critical for any kind of reasonable accuracy at extreme long ranges. I just don't see a CW grunt starting to shoot at an assaulting enemy at 250 yards and finaggling with the rear sight adjustment as the enemy line draws closer. Maybe many did but i'll bet most didn't.

-For all the reasons mentioned above, accuracy is also negatively affected by cross winds. There are no easily adjustable windage settings on the rear sights of those old muskets. 'Kentucky windage' has to be used in the heat of battle. They just were not intended for long range sniper type accuracy. I don't have the ballistic tables in front of my right now but a heavy cross wind can throw one of those minie's off the sight picture by a few feet at those long distances.

-gyroscopic precession also has to be compenstated for at longer ranges. Basically what this means is that the rotating bullet will drift to the right or left depending on how the rifling twist direction was machined. From my experiences shooting my Sharps 45-70's, this effect is just about negligable under 100 yards but it definitely has to be compenstated for beyond a 100 yards by rear sight windage adustments.

-at some point the rotational inertial energy component of the bullet's total energy approaches zero causing it to become unstable and possibly even tumble end over end causing whats known as a 'keyhole' in a paper target. Been there, done and seen that unfortunately. Modern high powered rifles with fast aggressive twist rates, high ballistic coefficient copper jacketed bullets, supersonic velocities and no BP fouling are for the most part immune to this effect.

In the end, Norb is gonna do what Norb is gonna do. I suppose if there's enough pressure it'll be increased. Maybe a compromise would be to increase the distance a little under certain battle conditions.
As for me personally, i'd be content if its left alone.:)
Last edited by ironsight on Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hancock the Superb
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Re:Regimental Frontage and Rifle Range

Post by Hancock the Superb »

How about this idea. There is a fire button for firing out of 160 yards. If you want that unit to fire out from 160 yards, or however long the range of the weapon is, then you waste ammo for 1 or 2 extra points. Will that be able to happen Norb? Just make sure it is on the brigade toolbar as well.
Hancock the Superb
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norb
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Re:Regimental Frontage and Rifle Range

Post by norb »

ironsight wrote:
In the end, Norb is gonna do what Norb is gonna do. I suppose if there's enough pressure it'll be increased. Maybe a compromise would be to increase the distance a little under certain battle conditions.
As for me personally, i'd be content if its left alone.:)
Don't put all the blame on me! We're a team here, blame everyone B)
Hancock the Superb
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Re:Regimental Frontage and Rifle Range

Post by Hancock the Superb »

Not me, though. I vote for what I said in my previous post.
Hancock the Superb
estabu2
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Re:Regimental Frontage and Rifle Range

Post by estabu2 »

norb wrote:
ironsight wrote:
In the end, Norb is gonna do what Norb is gonna do. I suppose if there's enough pressure it'll be increased. Maybe a compromise would be to increase the distance a little under certain battle conditions.
As for me personally, i'd be content if its left alone.:)
Don't put all the blame on me! We're a team here, blame everyone B)
Ok Norb, I will spread the blame around!! If this game is not perfectly accurate and if everyone does not like it then I blame the whole NSD team because if they didn't know or couldn't find out they should have went to the place and tried it out first hand!!!:P :P :P


Let's not let them get away with anything!!!


p.s. I also blame the future testers, unless I am one of them. In that case they are immune from criticizm!!:)
Last edited by estabu2 on Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It is strange, to have a shell come so near you...you can feel the wind."
Hancock the Superb
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Re:Regimental Frontage and Rifle Range

Post by Hancock the Superb »

I say blame Estabu, because he is estabu!:P
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JC Edwards
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Re:Regimental Frontage and Rifle Range

Post by JC Edwards »

Hancock the Superb wrote:
I say blame Estabu, because he is estabu!:P
I second that motion.:P
'The path that is not seen, nor hidden, should always be flanked'
Hancock the Superb
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Re:Regimental Frontage and Rifle Range

Post by Hancock the Superb »

We can start our own cult. Though I half blame JC, too. I'll be swayed a little by a little extra karma, though:cheer:
Hancock the Superb
JC Edwards
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Re:Regimental Frontage and Rifle Range

Post by JC Edwards »

Hancock the Superb wrote:
.......Though I half blame JC, too. I'll be swayed a little by a little extra karma, though:cheer:
Likewise.;)
'The path that is not seen, nor hidden, should always be flanked'
estabu2
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Re:Regimental Frontage and Rifle Range

Post by estabu2 »

Yankee's, go figure!!
"It is strange, to have a shell come so near you...you can feel the wind."
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