Scourge of War Boards

Changing the canister range might be interesting. Im not sure how it would work with the files. Artillery.csv lists the optimal range of the cannon while munitions.csv lists the ranges of the ammo type used. Say if a cannon had a Optimal range of 500m, increasing the canister range would move it to the more optimal range, and therefore more deadly? I'm just thinking out loud here.

In my Nap mod ive left it at 200 since thats in the ball park for Napoleonic artillery commander training, and near the most effective range. I did make it more powerful though. I would want it to have a larger moral effect if possible.

Jack -

There are multiple issues with reducing canister effectiveness down to 160 yards.
I will outline several below:

#1 - In the stock game, canister range is 200 yards and the rifle range is 160 yards. This is simply not fair and the best way to fix the problem is to increase the rifle range to 200 yards. IF you are playing SP, the problem is not obvious but when you play MP the problem becomes huge. As you decrease the effective canister range of artillery you have created a scenario where by the closing distance for infantry is much too close. By closing distance, I mean that infantry at 160 yards can charge an artillery battery far quicker than any deterrent or effective damage can be done by that battery. At 160 yards, the artillery MAY get off one round of canister per gun which will not be enough to damage a charging regiment. In the cost/benefit analysis, an infantry player has no second thoughts about systemically closing in and immediately charging batteries as the damage they receive will be far less than if they just sit there and slug it out.

#2 - In the GCM MP games, infantry rifles are currently at 220 yards and artillery ranges remain the same. The problem is that GCM has modded artillery by decreasing damage effectiveness by about 65%. The end result has been that infantry has a decided advantage in stepping back and shooting batteries - especially when experienced MP players "stack" their regimental lines which allow the front regiment to soak off losses and the back regiment to fire with relative impunity. This 20 yard "gap" certainly favors an infantry-centric game and IMO prevents players from maximizing/concentrating infantry forces as artillery has been effectively minimized as a deterrant. This becomes a big issue when players attempt to attack a defensive strong-point - with canister-effectiveness at 1/3rd in GCM games, players can inflict higher proportional casualties when attacking batteries while losses are minimized due to canister's ineffectiveness. A player can charge guns knowing that there is no effective deterrent to doing so. The only reason to protect guns is because the cost (in points) of losing them regularly can impact the score in a close game.

#3 - During the CW, the most effective weapon to disrupt artillery was artillery. The problem is that in GCM games and even in the stock game, this is not portrayed accurately. A side affect with GCM modded artillery is that counter-battery fire in a GCM game is non-existent. My understanding is that this is a by-product of the fact that there are not seperate CB tables for each gun type. In stock games, CB fire is much better but it doesn't cause a high enough fatigue and morale malus. Artillery batteries, even when guns or crew were not hit directly suffered when caissons were hit or horses killed. In fact in the CW, infantry used to purposely shoot the horses so the guns could not be pulled away! If you read "The Artillery of Gettysburg" you will get a really good account of what challenges batteries actually faced in battle - the key being that suppressing a battery by CB fire did happen and would be best accurately portrayed in SOW by increasing the fatigue and morale malus of batteries under CB fire.

MODDING ARTILLERY:

I have made several of these suggestions before, but at least in GCM they have not been incorporated.
I would recommend that you try the following:

A. Increase infantry rifle ranges to 200 yards.
B. Decrease canister-effectiveness only to 40-50% of the stock game but keep the 200 yard range.
C. Increase the morale/fatigue malus of infantry and artillery units under artillery fire.

By increasing rifle range, you give the infantry a fair opportunity to inflict casaulties. By decreasing the canister-effectiveness in the stock game, you eliminate those 40+ kills in one shot nonesense to something a bit more reasonable. By increasing the morale/fatigue malus imposed on both infantry and artillery units by artillery fire it will make players think twice about running around in column, etc, in open fields as there units will be fatigued and morale damaged without necessarily causing "physical" damage to the unit. More importantly, when combined with stock artillery CB fire, this morale/fatigue malus will force players to withdraw batteries getting punished by CB fire. Remember - when any unit has a high level of fatigue or morale malus they take greater physical damage than a perfectly healthy unit. This will serve to push the guns back further and result in players using them a bit more historically as CB fire will be enhanced.

Regards,

Willard

Willard wrote:

In the stock game, canister range is 200 yards and the rifle range is 160 yards. This is simply not fair and the best way to fix the problem is to increase the rifle range to 200 yards.

See my 1st post. War is not fair.

The problem is that in GCM games and even in the stock game, this is not portrayed accurately. A side affect with GCM modded artillery is that counter-battery fire in a GCM game is non-existent.

I disagree completely. Since the March patch, c'battery fire is very, very good. It does not take very long to knock out an enemy battery. I believe Norb has this aspect of the game about right. I now only have a few minor tweaks to my artillery and artytables files.

C. Increase the morale/fatigue malus of infantry and artillery units under artillery fire.

Although I don't agree with your 1st two recommendations, this one is very good. There is ample documentation of the debilitating effect of arty fire on the receiving troops. Fortunately, this is easily modded in the munitions file.

Although I don't agree with your 1st two recommendations, this one is very good. There is ample documentation of the debilitating effect of arty fire on the receiving troops. Fortunately, this is easily modded in the munitions file.

I think it should depend on the experience of the troop. Green troops were liable to break and run when the shells starting falling.. The green troops would call enemy shelling "horrifying".. The veterans would call it "annoying".

MTG and LP,

Solid comments all around. So, yes, the fatigue aspect may be the key to the whole thing. Perhaps we should pursue that direction, rather than changing the ranges. I'm going to look into that.

LP, right on about the difference in troop reactions.

MTG, I believe Willard was taking about CB in a GCM Modded MP game where he is right, it is almost completely ineffective. I find it about right for SP.

Willard, I think we have about the same level of information on artillery. As the Guns inproved thru better manufacturing, they were able to throw their iron balls out a little better and farther. MTG is right, war is not fair, ever. If I/we go back to 200 yards as a killing zone for cannister, it may be right to increase the rifle-musket range to 200 yards, BUT make it relatively weak. The idea of cannon as horrific defensive killers is spot-on. Taking a Battery or even a single cannon was a major acheivement, always accompanied by huge casualties.

I think we've hit on something here - Beef up skirmishers morale while making them harder to kill AND changing the morale of the Infantry to reflect their reactions under artillery fire. Now, how do we do it?

Gunship,

Sorry, not ignoring you. Gonna have to look at your ideas there and see what works.

Good deal all 'round Gentlemen,

Jack B)

Okay, here were I've come out. Changed cannister back to 200 yards. Extended rifle-musket ranges to 190 yards. (This is against historical aspects of when troops opened fire, but no need to thrash that again.) I toyed with the 200 yard range, but figured this way - if the Infantry really want to kill gunners while in a formed formation, the commanders are gonna have to suck up some casualties to do it. Not alot but some. Will run some tests and report back. Also, reset the Sharpes rifle to 250 yards. I own one of those too. Realistically, we go back to the "if you can't see them, you can't shoot them" aspect. They ARE accurate out to beyond 400 yards, but the terrain make them ineffective. Just a personal choice there. Oh, I left all carbines at 160 yards, but may change that also to 190 yards, depending on what information I find out. DID not change any of the effectiveness ratings for any weapons.

Jack B)

Oh, just realized I don't know where the effectiveness of the weapons are. What I thought was them turned out to be something different.

Jack B)

The aforementioned changes seem to do it. Infantry can get in close enough to do damage to the gunners. They take casualties in return, but not enough massive ones. As they close the range, however, then it starts to hurt. Average Infantry vs. 12 pdr. Smoothbores. I like it. Don't know about keeping the carbines at 160 yards yet. Probably change them back to 190 like the rifle-muskets. Also, Infantry firefights are not reall affected by the changes. Due to random terrain issues, they still close to a reasonably short range before opening fire. Think we've got something here.

Thoughts?

Jack B)

I have always thought that 220 rifles vs 200 canister was too much in favor of the Infantry.
200/200 would be my choice. 190/200 would be fine with me.
I also think we should go back to full sized gun crews.
It seems to take forever to get guns to change over
and fire canister now. (just my .02)

Thoughts?

Just one - almost none of this is possible.

* You can't change casualty rates for different formations
* You can't change artillery effectiveness separately vs different kinds of targets
* Troops don't gain fatigue from being shot at
* The rest of these ideas require munitions.csv which can't be modded for MP