Scourge of War Boards

does anyone know if other Mods would work with this one as well? (like B&F, Textured MiniMaps, GCM roadfixes, any of the other toolbars, etc...or...would any of them even be needed?)

Hear hear! I echo Grog's comments. I played a game using the Schellenberg map last night and I love everything about this mod. You've done so much work on the loading screens, music, everything. I really enjoy how the brigade/battalion guns work - they are very useful in a firefight and your tweaking of SoW to get them to function so smoothly is great. Your work on modifying th emaps is outstanding, the Schellenberg and Blenheim battlefields in particular are amazing.

There are two areas where I have small concerns. Breastworks/field fortifications might have too high a defensive bonus. I had a brigade of Austrian infantry on the Schellenberg and by the end of the battle several battalions had racked up scores of +300 or more without taking one single hit from AI musketry. The only losses I took were from melees of which the French tried several.

The cavalry may need some tweaking. I saw a huge host of Allied cavalry facing off the French infantry and being shot to pieces. They'd stand there, take losses, fall back, rally, the French came forward and repeat. It seems the AI doesn't knbow how to use them very well - they should surely either charge or withdraw much further.

I saw several cavalry charges, about 6 I think and in every case but one the cavalry was defeated and surrendered. Can melee losses be adjusted a little so that beaten cavalry retreat rather than get captured? Squadrons were staying in melee from 100 sabres down to about 35 then surrendering. Perhaps cavalry should retreat from melee before 60/70 percent losses?

I didn't see the AI using battalion guns - do they? Or do the French not have them?

These issues aside its a fantastic piece of work. I'm encouraged to run an MP campaign using this mod now!

does anyone know if other Mods would work with this one as well? (like B&F, Textured MiniMaps, GCM roadfixes, any of the other toolbars, etc...or...would any of them even be needed?)

I would say no other mods are needed. B&F is an ACW mod so has no relevance at all. Textured minimaps doesn't apply as Allessio has made his own minimaps. You should definitely NOT use any other toolbar because this era of warfare uses different formations, especially at the brigade level with battalion guns. I don't know what GCM roadfixes does. One tends to ignore roads in the 1700s as they were so poor anyway!

I used Jolly's terrain mod to make the trees yellower (I use it all the time anyway) and one of the more realistic/lite smoke mods because I like how it gives a soft haze to musket fire but other than visuals like these I'd run the mod as it comes for 2 or 3 battles and see how you like it.

Some screens taken yesterday.

1) Austrian infantry advancing with battalion guns being rolled forwards. The gun 'limber' is the lone infantry figure marching behind. He's the unit 'flag' as well, so click on him to access the gun. Cool lobster-helmeted cuirassiers behind them.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m58 ... tnGuns.jpg

2) Amazing flags!

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m58 ... -Flags.jpg

3) Huge wing of allied cavalry advancing.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m58 ... avWing.jpg

4) Austrian columns snaking across the landscape. Images like this remind me of photos from Charles Grant's "The Wargame" book in the 1960s.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m58 ... olumns.jpg

5) Taking up a defensive position on the Schellenberg

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m58 ... ergDef.jpg

6) The French arrive and begin pressing the Allied cavalry back. If anything the French flags are even prettier than the Allied ones.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m58 ... Attack.jpg

7) Having pushed the Allied cavalry back to either flank of the Schellenberg, the French infantry begin their assault up the hill proper. The other German infantry wing went way off to the far side of the map to secure 'Wolf Hill' so I was left to hold the heights with just my two brigades of 13 battalions and 6 guns. It was tough to keep plugging holes with my dwindling supply of reserves. This is the "lite smoke v3" mod which I like.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m58 ... Smoke1.jpg

8) The north face of the Schellenberg with the left Allied cavalry wing in the valley making a counter-attack.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m58 ... Smoke2.jpg

Well, first of all thank you all for your comment and feedback

JohnVW, as Saddletank said I think you must disable all other mods like B&F, the Blenheim Mod don't need other mods to run.

Saddletank thank you for your screenshots, I begin from the breastworks, in this period of warfare the defensive positions were prepared meticulously, I gave the high value of breastworks in the Schellenberg map just to get the results that you have seen, in that position infantry can be defeated only with an assault with bayonet.
The reason why I made this is the study of the Storming of the Schellenberg, there were 3 assaults on the top position of the hill, and all were repulsed with great losses by the attackers; count D'Arco, the Franco-Bavarian commanders, was defeated only because in another part of the hill the fortifications were of lower quality and almost all his troops were in the area of the main assault. Another example of the effectiveness of carefully fortified positions is the Battle of Chiari, in this battle after 2 hours of fight the Austrians lost 200 men the French lost over 3,000 men.

And now some words about cavalry, it was the most difficult part of the mod, I tried everything to solve the problem and in the end I suggest to act in this way: when you play against the AI, if you are the top commander (for example Prince Eugene) and you see that your cavalry remains under fire from the enemy and the squadrons do not react and continue to take losses, you have to take command and withdraw your squadrons; in the same way if you see the enemy cavalry squadrons that move towards your infantry you have to react with your cavalry, if not, there will be two possible consequences: the enemy squadrons will stop and will be decimated by your infantry or the enemy squadrons will charge and (if you are in the beginning of the battle) will lose the melee and surrender.

The result of a melee between infantry and cavalry is the consequence of the numbers of the two units, in a melee between 600 soldiers against 100 or 120 horsemen, the latter will be defeated and will surrender, I tried in many ways to do what you suggest (cavalry should retreat from melee before 60/70 percent losses) but with no result. But pay attention to the fact that I'm talking about melees at the beginning of the battle, because in the end of the battle one fresh squadron of 100 horses can route an infantry battalion.

The French do not use battalion guns.

Cheers

what size is the Luzzara map? and is the Schellenberg map also for this mod? (and if so, it's size as well)...thanks

(hope to try it out this weekend)

All,

Alessillo is correct. my research is the French and Bavarians did not use Battalion guns. Don't know why. National preference, I guess.

Tank, I ran into the same issue with Cav vs. Foot firing at them. I discovered the musket ranges were 150 yards. No offense Alessillo, but I own a Brown Bess and you really can't hit anything out beyond 100 yards or so with one, and barely at that range. Various mid-to-late 18th century tests bare this out. Hence, the "...wait 'til you see the whites of their eyes..." idea.

I'm using my "18th century musket ranges" Mod to fix this. I've cut-and-pasted in Alessillo's musket information into it. All muskets have a maximum range of 100 yards, and really aren't very effective beyond 75 yards. Thus Cavalry WILL charge, rather than stand and be shot to bits, as their charge range is 100 yards. Simple and effective change.

Battalions guns are really neat, but so far they have been little more than trophys for the enemy to take after charging. AND, if you take them back, they go away, as most (allied) commands don't have attached artillery for them to join.

I have begun editing new OOBs to reflect the Battalion Guns being withdrawn and formed into small batteries of 4-5 guns for each command to use as close support for the Infantry, but more easily managed and supported. I think Holcroft Blood would approve.

Jack "being his usual pain-in-the-butt self" O'Neill

Also, have I mentioned I LOVE this Mod. These sprites look just like the Phoenix, Pat Condray and, (mostly), Dixon WSS 15mm figures I painted as a kid a thousand years ago. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

hi jack...where would I find your "18th century musket ranges" MOD? (if it's avail)...thanks

JohnVW, Luzzara is like the Gettysburg map, and Schellenberg is like Culp's Hill Map

Jack, you are free to alter my work in any way, but I tested it for months, I played hundreds of battles, and above all this mod is about a different period of warfare, if you play it with the ACW in mind or the Napoleonic period you are wrong, it took months and months to be able to find a good compromise with the SOW engine, after only four days from when the mod came out, take your time before beginning to make changes (how many battles have you played? how many scenarios?). The battalion guns were attached to the battalions, there weren't batteries and in the heat of the battle they were exposed to the enemy fire, this is what appens in the battles of this mod, if you want a better behaviour of the battalion guns you have to take command of them.
If you reduce the range of muskets to 100 yards infantry can't defend from advancing cavalry, when cavalry is in range it's too late because it's charging. I know that a real musket can't hit a target beyond 100 yards but I had to make a compromise with the logic of the SOW engine, if you use the 100 yards range and play a long battle, with thousands of horsemen, you'll see that your infantry after hours of firefight will be wiped out by the fresh enemy cavalry and will not be able to defend himself because of the short range of its muskets.
Last but not least, when you say "Battalions guns are really neat, but so far they have been little more than trophys for the enemy to take after charging", take in mind that you have to protect your infantry and guns with your cavalry.

I've played 2 battles so far each time commanding a division of infantry, Jack, and I find the battalion gus are superb. They rack up huge scores - I had one today with 329 points and I have had several with scores around 150. You can slip one into the gap between two battalions and turn it so its canister really helps that battalions firefight. In the two battles I've played I haven't had one captured yet, so you must not be taking good enough care of them! I never have mine out front but between battalions.

Be aware though that I never play army commander. With HITS commanding a division is my limit (in an otherwise AI vs AI army level battle) so I do pay close attention to what my brigades are doing and as in this period I always keep a second line of equal or greater strength than my first line so that units that fall back can be replaced.

Making them into batteries is quite unrealistic and ahistorical. I really suggest you don't do this until you've played a few more games with them. Their use in this mod is one of those neat anachronistic things that makes different periods of horse and musket warfare and gives the battles their distinct flavour. Make batteries of them and you lose that which is a great shame.

As Allessio says there is always a compromise between accuracy and gameplay and for the sake of the latter I think the 150 yd musket range probably works. I'm not certain of it yet as the ranges do feel very far. I wonder if 125 yds would look better, with maybe a cav charge range of 90 yds. Whatever it is though I agree it has to be longer than cav charge range or else the cav will be charging in every time and destroying themselves on fresh infantry early in the battle.

Gentlemen,

All your points are welcome and valid to a fair degree.

Alessillo, if you have paid any attention to what I have written these many posts, you will find I some idea regarding 17th-18th-19th century combined arms warfare, more than most others here. (I have a degree in it). Your research is outstanding and I truly appreciate it. This is a much overlooked period of warfare and you are representing it superbly. I have had no problems with my Foot repulsing charging Horse with the range mods in place, so I'm not sure what you mean. Musket fire combined with cold steel has seen them off every time, until, like you said, the Foot have tired. You have set this up beautifully. The Battalion guns are outstanding and they DO rack up fair damage on the enemy Foot, assuming I haven't lost them.(hat tip to Tank here.) They appear to require a bit more micro-management than I have been used to, thus my losing them to charging Foot. (Also, be aware I've said "So Far...").
I am well aware there were no Batteries in this time period. How many here know the Guns were drawn by CIVILIAN contractors, who generally bugged out before the battle, or that the Gunners were not really in the Military but were more like Guild members. This is why the Guns were overrun so many times during a battle. There were also no Divisions, per se. Generals were given collections of Battalions or Squadrons, loosely grouped into Brigades for ease of handling. We have to work within the Game Engine framework, so we have Divisions and Corps. Please understand I am not putting down anything you have done. It is a fabulous piece of work. Also, I've managed to get in almost a dozen battles of various sizes, so yes, I've a pretty good idea of what's happening here. (No Scenarios though. Gotta wait for the weekend for that).

Tank, my Battalion Guns ARE in their set positions between their parent Battalions in the line of Battle. When they set up, unless drawn back parallel to the infantry Line by myself, they "Stick Out" in front of the Infantry line on their own. As far as "Unrealistic" goes, I direct you to the Campaign of 1708, culminating with the Battle of Oudenarde. During the approach march Marlbourgh himself directed his advance guard commander General Cadogen to "leave his Battalion guns behind as they would hinder the march of his Foot." (Oudenarde 1708 by Belfield, Knight Publishing, 1972). I will say one other thing about pulling the guns from their battalions - Field Expediency. I can absolutely see a Commander on the field needing to cover some area with fire and pulling the guns to do it.

I generally play either as a "Corps" or large "Division" Commander, so far. (I don't play as an Army Commander either - to far away from the fighting. I DO like to get stuck in). I fully agree with the anachronistic aspect of this. Yes, we must compromise within the game and the game engine. Cavalry IS the big issue in my mind here because the AI really doesn't know the difference. I can't imagine ANY Cavalry Commander letting their Horsemen sit there and get shot up without either moving back or charging forward. (Campbell at Fontenoy was in a different spot. His Cavalry were under artillery fire AND had HRH the Duke of Cumberland as a Commander. Not a great combo there.)

Jack

JohnVW - here is the .csv for the range changes. For it to work, put it in a folder named Logistics, then out that one in a folder named "Whatever You Want So You Will Recognize It" and put it in the Mods section of the Game. Let me know if it doesn't work.