Proposed Artillery Behavioral Change

[GShock]

All 3 changes have their meaning. Perhaps the command ArtStay should be linked to a button so the player choses and I suppose the AI general may also choose whether to keep the arty safe or not.

I agree that in any case a captured gun should be captured along with its limber which keeps its ammo and makes it mobile but the most important change is the routing of guns. They simply can't rout with instant limbering and taking everything away like that... The gun and limber must remain there.

[Kerflumoxed]

Shirkon wrote:

Marching Thru Georgia wrote:

I vote yes for all three.

I hope that for #2 the guns will not instantly limber, but will spend time doing so. I would also add a #4. Where the player can man the captured guns, ask him if he would like to do so or just spike them, (they raise the white flag and disappear).

Another thing to consider for your #4. If you capture the gun you must also capture the limber otherwise you have a 2400 lb paperweight. The ammo for the gun is on the limber and it's much easier to move by hand then the gun. Without the limber you have no ammo or fuses for the guns so they are useless for the current fight. And without at least some artillerists to guide the infantry you want to man the gum, most wouldn't know what to do anyway. Loading and firing a CW cannon isn't anything like loading and firing the rifle musket and most infantry would probably miss some important steps, like poking the friction primer through the powder bag to ensure the burning primer touched off the powder charge. or covering the touch hole while swabbing so that no air gets to the burning embers when swabbing out the barrel before putting a new charge in. Is bad if you don't have all those embers out and shoving in a bag of black powder that explodes because of them, it could really ruin the day of the person ramming the charge home.

Acually, the friction primer was not used to "prick" the powderbag. Rather, they were issued a "Priming Wire" (an .8 diameter piece of steel with a sharpened point on one end and a loop for the middle finger on the other to aid in extracting from the vent) to open the bag through the vent. After being "pricked" the Friction Primer was inserted. Also, the Friction Primer was not long enough to reach the powder bag.

J

[RebBugler]

Roberts wrote:

Greetings

If anything we can agree to disagree.

I don't think you are able to create a game that will satisfy both camps, What needs to be done is to optimize the game for, those who play AI and those who play Head to Head. In effect 2 seperate games.

I agree, but two games is definitely not an option.

Although I feel strongly that all three proposals are needed for balanced play, I can support #2 alone. The 'yeas' here are leading and this is probably the simplest solution. The other two solutions can be handled by modding the csv files, no coding is necessary. The Drills.csv and gui.csv are easily modded to accomplish this, so scenario designers, or folks modding for sandbox (I believe, haven't modded there), can maintain the balance of all three solutions if they so desire.

Some more feedback please, then I'll present this to Norb for scrutiny, and hopefully, a fix.

[GShock]

I agree that all 3 are required but there wouldn't be the need to do the #3 if there was a button to enable/disable the "keep at safe distance" mode. This would allow players (as well as AI generals) to handle things as they see fit and strip off another % of "don't know what each unit does because it can be different in every scenario" component.

Still... I personally think it is not such a prioritary job as it is to actually fix the artillery and make it kill something with shell, solid and shrapnel. That is a MAJOR priority indeed. It is very likely that making the arty work at long range will very much absorb the much needed changes proposals but I do agree that once the muskets are starting to get modded the arty will REALLY need to bug off quickly from proximity with Infantry but this is another reason why I would like an extra table designed to fit hit % according to the target type.

[Shirkon]

RebBugler wrote:

BOSTON wrote:

If I may add, historically, seldom was a gun captured and immediately manned, because the gun crews generally ran off with all the tools of gun loading. In essence, disabling the gun. This was opted by most battery commanders over spiking so the possibly of getting their gun back was still available. Plus, it was faster.

So, with this thread, we're really talking gameplay, and what seems to be more realistic.

So what would prevent the other side from capturing/spiking the gun? The tools would not do them much good then.

A captured gun was a valuable prize for unit commanders, great fodder for promotions. Guns that were intact but unable to be manned, were tediously rolled back, MANually, to friendly lines. Spiking was always the last option considered.

Besdes the fact that very few infantry had the material to spike a gon anyway. Bare minimum would be large nails/spikes, a hammer or large rock to pound them in, some kind of cutter to clip them close to the gun barrel and a file to ensure that the nail/spike couldn't be grabbed with pliers or something and removed.

Effectively spiking guns wasn't a snap 5 minute job, it took time to do it right.

[MrSpkr]

FWIW, I agree with No. 2, but disagree with the others as i am not sure they contribute anything significant to the game.

Steve

[Shirkon]

Kerflumoxed wrote:

Shirkon wrote:

Marching Thru Georgia wrote:

I vote yes for all three.

I hope that for #2 the guns will not instantly limber, but will spend time doing so. I would also add a #4. Where the player can man the captured guns, ask him if he would like to do so or just spike them, (they raise the white flag and disappear).

Another thing to consider for your #4. If you capture the gun you must also capture the limber otherwise you have a 2400 lb paperweight. The ammo for the gun is on the limber and it's much easier to move by hand then the gun. Without the limber you have no ammo or fuses for the guns so they are useless for the current fight. And without at least some artillerists to guide the infantry you want to man the gum, most wouldn't know what to do anyway. Loading and firing a CW cannon isn't anything like loading and firing the rifle musket and most infantry would probably miss some important steps, like poking the friction primer through the powder bag to ensure the burning primer touched off the powder charge. or covering the touch hole while swabbing so that no air gets to the burning embers when swabbing out the barrel before putting a new charge in. Is bad if you don't have all those embers out and shoving in a bag of black powder that explodes because of them, it could really ruin the day of the person ramming the charge home.

Acually, the friction primer was not used to "prick" the powderbag. Rather, they were issued a "Priming Wire" (an .8 diameter piece of steel with a sharpened point on one end and a loop for the middle finger on the other to aid in extracting from the vent) to open the bag through the vent. After being "pricked" the Friction Primer was inserted. Also, the Friction Primer was not long enough to reach the powder bag.

J

Yeah, I know, but when I was replying I couldn't for the life of me think of what it was called. Had one of those "Duh" moments. :blink:

[garyknowz]

I'd nix #1, and keep #2 and #3. 1# is just too ahistoric in my view. #2 just makes sense (why would infantry stop a charge simply because the battery begins limbering up anyway?). And #3 is exactly what Colonel McGilvery asked Capt. Bigelow to do with his 9th Massachusetts Battery on Trostle's Farm at Gettysburg. Here's a link to the incident for those interested:
http://9thmassbattery.home.comcast.net/ ... sburg.html

But would that override retreat by recoil too, or just limbering?

[charlesobscure]

The only one I think should be kept would be #2

[AP514]

Ok I have to jump in here.......

#2 is a YES for sure..

#1 & #3 Im not so sure about.


I Do think that LIMBERED ARTYshould be very Fragile.
Option #5
High Casualties from ALL type of fire and a huge morale loss if taking fire Limbered w/in Musket range.( The Large Morale loss could be Exempt if the retreat button is hit. This will keep retreating defending arty from instantly routing)
I think this will keep the "GAMEY" Move the Arty up into cannister range ATTACKs down.

AP514

P.S. This still does not address the Cannister fire OVER, THROUGH and AROUND friendly INF to the arty's front