I must say, that the artillery retreat to avoid being taken is definitly the cheatingist thing I've ever seen, OR DONE (multiple times, if I may say so...)
Perhaps, an update should be included so a regiment can still charge a gun until it is actually LIMBERED and running away. In other words, when you hit the retreat button, it takes the amount of time for the gun to limber then it will retreat.
Off the topic of the topic, obviously.
An idea to prevent the "maneuver column charge"
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Hancock the Superb
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Re:An idea to prevent the "maneuver column charge"
Hancock the Superb
Re:An idea to prevent the "maneuver column charge"
I agree fully, Hancock. You should be able to charge the guns and it should take them time to limber up, even with the retreat button.
Steve
Steve
"I'm ashamed of you, dodging that way. They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance."
Major General John Sedgwick's final words, Battle of Spotsylvania Courthouse, May 9, 1864
Major General John Sedgwick's final words, Battle of Spotsylvania Courthouse, May 9, 1864
Re:An idea to prevent the "maneuver column charge"
The artillery issue has been heavily discussed and I don't think I've seen anyone disagree about it -- it's a problem and it ought to be fixed, and meanwhile we just don't use the retreat button for arty.
This thread's about the maneuver column charge.
This thread's about the maneuver column charge.
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NY Cavalry
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Re:An idea to prevent the "maneuver column charge"
Gentlemen,
This is an interesting topic that has generated some lively discussion. This game is designed to be very realistic, but of course it can never be perfect. Tactics are not perfect in the game for example skirmishers were essential in civil war battles where in the game I hardly ever use them. The infantry units probable charge more than in actual civil war battles.
The artillery is going to bring the most intense discussion, all because of that hated canister. It is hard to take a position when your being shredded by canister and double canister. What are the options for the attacking commander? He must move quick or attack with numerically superior forces or look for another spot that he can assault successfully. It is understandable for players to want to just get after the guns anyway they could. In the actual civil war by Gettysburg there were a lot of sharpshooters deployed all over the battlefield. They would pick off officers and artillery gun crews. Of course, if enough of the crews were shot down they would pull in infantry to help man the guns for a net loss of zero. This still had an effectiveness result and a moral effect.
The best way to employ artillery in the game is on elevated ground with infantry forward 25 to 50 yards and the infantry being right and left of the guns allowing for clear field of fire. If you want to protect against column charges this is a good set up with a regiment in reserve to help the guns. If enemy units in column start moving towards the guns you will have time to charge them with your infantry. Then if you have to rotate in fresh regiments after melee . If artillery and infantry are being commanded separately the 2 commanders must work together for this effect.
I think troops in column should receive more damage from all types of fire and I don’t think any changes in speed is necessary.
In actual civil war battles commanders had option that are not available in the game: 1) guns would not be resupplied on the front lines. When exhausted they would be replaced out of the reserve artillery (if they had any-the union always did) and then move to the rear to be resupplied. In the game no reserve is kept all guns up and firing. 2) the constant menace from sharpshooters had an effect on moral and the guns performance. In the game only Union has sharps and that is only 2 regiments that are grouped together. 3) Even though they were small targets at even 100 yards artillery did take small arms losses. No one was exempt from flying bullets. Plenty of examples in the civil war where horses and men were shot just being close to the hot action. The game in no way replicates this. 4) If you were attacking at a specific spot on the enemy’s line then you would direct your own artillery to concentrate fire on that spot. If you were able to concentrate fire on your enemy’s specific batteries from different angles this was very advantageous for the attackers. By being shot at from different angles moral was greatly affected and therefore was gun performance. If you are attacking in this game this really doesn’t work very well for maximum effect as in actual civil war games. You can specifically target and depending on your quality of your artillery unit you may have some effect, but overall crossfire is not well replicated for artillery.
In the game artillery commanders have all these benefits where the attacker must come up with ways to effectively attack and deal with canister. Or the game becomes just a defensive exercise.
Now, I am not defending the practice of column charges or encouraging it. I’m am just trying to help the debate.
The problem with retreating artillery was well described by Garnier and I hope no one mixes their artillery in with their infantry lines that does drive me nuts. We should work to keep clear fields of fire for artillery.
Respectfully,
Harmon
NY Cavalry
This is an interesting topic that has generated some lively discussion. This game is designed to be very realistic, but of course it can never be perfect. Tactics are not perfect in the game for example skirmishers were essential in civil war battles where in the game I hardly ever use them. The infantry units probable charge more than in actual civil war battles.
The artillery is going to bring the most intense discussion, all because of that hated canister. It is hard to take a position when your being shredded by canister and double canister. What are the options for the attacking commander? He must move quick or attack with numerically superior forces or look for another spot that he can assault successfully. It is understandable for players to want to just get after the guns anyway they could. In the actual civil war by Gettysburg there were a lot of sharpshooters deployed all over the battlefield. They would pick off officers and artillery gun crews. Of course, if enough of the crews were shot down they would pull in infantry to help man the guns for a net loss of zero. This still had an effectiveness result and a moral effect.
The best way to employ artillery in the game is on elevated ground with infantry forward 25 to 50 yards and the infantry being right and left of the guns allowing for clear field of fire. If you want to protect against column charges this is a good set up with a regiment in reserve to help the guns. If enemy units in column start moving towards the guns you will have time to charge them with your infantry. Then if you have to rotate in fresh regiments after melee . If artillery and infantry are being commanded separately the 2 commanders must work together for this effect.
I think troops in column should receive more damage from all types of fire and I don’t think any changes in speed is necessary.
In actual civil war battles commanders had option that are not available in the game: 1) guns would not be resupplied on the front lines. When exhausted they would be replaced out of the reserve artillery (if they had any-the union always did) and then move to the rear to be resupplied. In the game no reserve is kept all guns up and firing. 2) the constant menace from sharpshooters had an effect on moral and the guns performance. In the game only Union has sharps and that is only 2 regiments that are grouped together. 3) Even though they were small targets at even 100 yards artillery did take small arms losses. No one was exempt from flying bullets. Plenty of examples in the civil war where horses and men were shot just being close to the hot action. The game in no way replicates this. 4) If you were attacking at a specific spot on the enemy’s line then you would direct your own artillery to concentrate fire on that spot. If you were able to concentrate fire on your enemy’s specific batteries from different angles this was very advantageous for the attackers. By being shot at from different angles moral was greatly affected and therefore was gun performance. If you are attacking in this game this really doesn’t work very well for maximum effect as in actual civil war games. You can specifically target and depending on your quality of your artillery unit you may have some effect, but overall crossfire is not well replicated for artillery.
In the game artillery commanders have all these benefits where the attacker must come up with ways to effectively attack and deal with canister. Or the game becomes just a defensive exercise.
Now, I am not defending the practice of column charges or encouraging it. I’m am just trying to help the debate.
The problem with retreating artillery was well described by Garnier and I hope no one mixes their artillery in with their infantry lines that does drive me nuts. We should work to keep clear fields of fire for artillery.
Respectfully,
Harmon
NY Cavalry
Re:An idea to prevent the "maneuver column charge"
Instead of countering unrealistic gameplay with unrealistic rules (slowing column movement speed when near the enemy) how about the completely realistic option of
a. getting fired on in column being the equivalent to being fired in flank (if you think about it, is essentially is the same)
b. restrict the ability to change formation under fire. if you try your units will make a morale/experience check. if it fails it will retreat a short distance.
the ai already plays as if this is in place. its people that don't.
and while i'm on the soap box, infantry in skirmish formation should be practically immune to artillery.
a. getting fired on in column being the equivalent to being fired in flank (if you think about it, is essentially is the same)
b. restrict the ability to change formation under fire. if you try your units will make a morale/experience check. if it fails it will retreat a short distance.
the ai already plays as if this is in place. its people that don't.
and while i'm on the soap box, infantry in skirmish formation should be practically immune to artillery.
Re:An idea to prevent the "maneuver column charge"
Yes, it would be better to make the column unable (or very slow) to change formation and then make it suffer much worse damage both from fire and melee. It would be more drastic which is why I didn't originally propose it, but it would be better. I'm not sure if that can be modded, if it can then we could just wait for mod folders to be enabled in MP.
Last edited by Garnier on Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.