Scourge of War Boards

I'm going to change the guns back to use their normal weapons and stats, in the next 20 min. Edit: Done.

G -

You may want to consider increasing gun crew numbers back up to the 15 man stock crew.
The 12 man crew's are going to rout really really fast if someone pushes their guns up out in the open.
This will especially happen if they are being subjected to CB fire from 3 inch guns - especially if they are Yank 3-inch guns.

I would suggest this be done in the interim until we get some more data and people re-adjust tactics. From what I could tell last night, guns were routing approximately 5 times faster than they normally would pre-patch. I was able to knock the first reb gun which was deployed at less than 500 yards in just over 5 minutes of fire time. Pre-patch would take at least over 20-25 minutes of fire to accomplish that in similar situations.

-Willard

I believe the 12 man crews don't make it rout much faster, because I *think* they rout when half the men are dead, so it's a change from 7 to 6. I've never tested this thoroughly, I just noticed they get to lower amounts of men when the crew is 12, without routing.

But yeah the 12 man crew was just an experiment really and I'll switch back if for no other reason than to make the numbers look nicer on the batteries.

I'm going to change the guns back to use their normal weapons and stats, in the next 20 min. Edit: Done.

From what I could tell last night, guns were routing approximately 5 times faster than they normally would pre-patch. I was able to knock the first reb gun which was deployed at less than 500 yards in just over 5 minutes of fire time. Pre-patch would take at least over 20-25 minutes of fire to accomplish that in similar situations.

-Willard

That's great news! That sounds much more realistic and should also make players think twice about rolling guns up for canister use. If the enemy does that, just roll a battery up for CB fire and rout those big shotguns in short order.

It seems as if artillery can now be used to shape the battlefield. Instead of quickly crossing open fields in column, players are going to have to learn to slowly march in line through cover.

Yeah, anything that reduces the running around in columns at the front line which we always did before, is going to help.

Now, we'll be marching our lines along a fence, the flagbearer straddling the fence and the regiment on either side of him in the open, thanking him for the cover. Sorry, had to say it. But my first sentence wasn't sarcastic!

Well. . . about 5 MP games in and I'm kinda bummed. The games have slowed to a snail's pace. 90 minute games seem very long now, with the emphasis on artillery. What I feared most.

But perhaps even more responsible is the onset of fatigue and the time needed for recovery. I was all for making exhausted regiments recover slower, but this is pretty extreme. Maybe more realistic, but not nearly as fun.

I'm still undecided, but what I have seen so far I like. Just finished a sandbox MP and it was a good fight. Counter battery fire is now going to be very important. I had to keep my troops under cover(use ridges, trees, and such). My troops didn't tire too much and attacked just fine taking the position.


The increased artillery should make for quicker games(more action), but we will see.

Well. . . about 5 MP games in and I'm kinda bummed. The games have slowed to a snail's pace. 90 minute games seem very long now, with the emphasis on artillery. What I feared most.

But perhaps even more responsible is the onset of fatigue and the time needed for recovery. I was all for making exhausted regiments recover slower, but this is pretty extreme. Maybe more realistic, but not nearly as fun.

I agree, maneuvering and rushing to help allies in battle makes the MP games more enjoyable. With the current setup, you're pretty much stuck fighting wherever your first engaged.

Did a quick test with the Arty Tutorial.
In this tutorial CSA has a battery of 4 guns 2 of which are 12lb Hwtz and 2 are 3". This battle was fought in pretty close range as the farthest I shot to was at about 500yds (beginning of the engagement) and then as USA gets close to my obj (left of Archer's Bde) the battery gradually had to shot targets that were getting closer and closer, at this point I rolled back on recoil.

The fall back on recoil is too long a distance, I fear and another thing I noticed (but this is about the BDE tutorial) is that when you set a RGT in skirmish formation it goes ALL OVER THE PLACE (the formation is too spread out in too wide area imo). This is about spacing but the fall back on recoil isn't. Perhaps there's a gaming reason to allow such a long fall back I don't know about... anyway it's minor.

The CSA battery gave me 2 indicators: 1) They are militia so their accuracy MUST be low and they tired very very quickly. 2)In a matter of 20 minutes they all were totally exhausted (which ALSO affects accuracy).

I also noticed a few more things: 3) The accuracy of the 12lb Hwtz is totally nihil and the score proves it. One of the 2 howitzers scored 3, the other scored 0 and the whole battle lasted about 30 minutes. 4) One of the 3' scored a clean hit at 450yds with a solid shot killing 38 in a single instant.

5) At the bde courier level, a battery away from you needs a courier to switch to manual targeting. This is correct, however, you only get the mouse pointer change to the arrow (select tgt) once the courier is there. This is inappropriate because by the time the courier arrives to the gun, you will have moved other troops and clicked that moouse button many times. You know what it means... it means you'll have to send the courier again and this thing should be fixed. When you send the courier with orders you must immediately select the tgt and once you do the courier leaves.

6) There's problems with dealing with AI managed guns. At 180yds distance I saw I was switching to cannister and the gun insisted on using shrapnel (which I deem STILL totally ineffective). The AI seems to switch ammo on its own accord and, furthenmore, if you select your captain and issue the order to the whole battery to target a specific or use a specific ammo, the icons in the bar don't light so you have no indication on whether or not the orders were taken. I mean you click something with your captain but then no icon lights up and you've got to look for individual battery settings. In the fray of battle, this means the best thing to do is to give orders to guns one by one individually but that can prove really nasty with restricted camera view. Do mind each of these orders needs a courier at bde level so it's an important fix I think we need here. I do agree that the AI can switch to what IT thinks is best (thats why we got the TC button) but if the captain gives an order, at least the lights of that order should light up otherwise you won't know whether the order was taken or not (i.e. the courier arrived or not).

So the total score here was 145.7 for CSA (militia). One 3' shooting cannister which is also the one that did the solid hit did 105, the other 37. One of the 12lb had 0 and the other had 3. All guns shot constantly from the beginning to the end since I made sure to keep them with clear sight to the enemy. I shot on infantry only, manual targeting on the closest regiments (the USA ART scored 118).

Personally I think this is too low. If you consider I was enfilade firing on very close USA RGT engaged with CSA infantry at ranges between 200 and 300 this is really very low. Mind that one of the 2 3' used cannister so this close was the range but again as soon as you get beyond the cannister range, you can fire for 30 minutes on a stationary target without any effect (excluding the sporadic lucky shot with solid).

Alas, the solid works, cannister works, shrapnel definitely doesn't.

How many shots can you take on a stationary target 300yds away, which is regiment sized, before you can score a hit? Mind that shrapnel or shell would take a near miss as a quasi hit because they are area weapons. Can all the fuses be bad? I don't think so. Is it a matter of accuracy (and fatigue)? I do think they affected things pretty heavily. Will need more tests, many more tests but perhaps modding can help us here.

The 3' that scored 105 had a lucky shot at 450yds and then used cannister. 105 kills in 30 minutes at such close range looks a bit too low. The other 3 guns in 30 minutes scored in total 40 hits and I think this says it all. Need more time and tests to say something definitive here but I do remember the pre-patch way of things and I can tell things have improved by a lot (it was 0 kills without cannister before).

Tests carrying on, nothing much to add about the arty tutorial, except that the problem of fatigue can NOT affect the infantry fire onto the artillery which is deemed totally worthless. In my personal idea, an artillery unit within musket range would be obliterated at the first volley and the servers, fully knowing that, would shoot a cannister round and then ROUT (leaving the arty in place of course). So that's where my idea comes from. So we leave the arty tutorial where it stands with little to no effectiveness, except for cannister and move to the DIV tutorial now.

The results are more or less the same, of course, I am concentrating on the artillery so I will first start about saying the REST of the things before tackling the main subject.

I have noticed a few good things that are CERTAINLY new in the way AI manages the combat routines. The USA did not really try to make use of fences as cover (in proximity with the obj to defend for CSA) but even though being in the open, the AI rgts formed a good deployment and so did my CSA AI subordinates. I was well impressed and I got the upper hand by manually sending couriers to each RGT in proximity of a fence.

Speaking of fences, the occasional stampeded or turned fence could be useful here. Not just visual, RGTs could pass over that fence faster though of course not all fences are like that, a courier cannot jump over it so we must assume it will turn it aside or bash it down somehow. Something like that could help speeding up the couriering process, though perhaps I am dreaming, surely not prioritary but it would be nice nonetheless.

Why do the infantry charges stop so abruptly when the enemy is beaten? Troops should cheer and stop after a short pursuit (it is at all possible since Cavalry does)... could it be done for infantry too? It does look odd to see the winning rgt get back in line formation when the enemy is routing 10yds away. At least give it some more time to reform, not immediately...

What did NOT change between the last and this version of the game is the inability of the artillery leader (in this case Capt. Garber) to take orders. Suspecting this might not have changed, I sent Hays ahead of him to cover my right side (and stop the arty from being charged by the USA infantry) so my artillery was totally safe, EXACTLY on the starting spot despite my numerous (at least 5) attempts to move it. I could even see the strategic order marker on the other side of the field (trying to move the arty on the hill exactly where the obj is by making use of the roads) but Garber never moved. This is VERY serious... and again, unchecked since last version. I tried with limbering, moving, use roads, column, line, strat order... nothing. That's bad.

Though I don't like to repeat myself, there's something with my present courier level that makes the game VERY HARD to manage for "interface" and "design" reasons. It's something I already pointed out in the past but that was left out of the picture probably because nobody plays the historical level?
Figure out in order to move a division to a place, give it double quick and select formation you've got to send 3 couriers. When the couriers arrive you will FINALLY see the arrow on the field telling you where those units are going, in the meanwhile you have no idea whether or not the orders arrived... you might even not be able to see the arrows due to terrain (or use of command map). Isn't it more logical to open a courier window, select ALL the orders, and only then hit GO and send just one courier? ? ? ? ? ?
This is particularly evident with the artillery. Forget about Garber now, with the arty you have one extra order to send, the limbering so it makes 4 couriers. In case you want to target a specific regiment we have the issue CRYSTAL CLEAR before us:

You send the courier and when (and if) it arrives, the pointer changes to indicate that your gun is waiting for you to select the target.

In the meanwhile you have forgotten WHICH gun (if you want to give each gun a different target for example) or, most likely, you will have clicked the mouse 50 times thus wasting the order (and having to send out another courier again). So, again, I think this feature needs a courier window (which we DO have) where you select ALL the orders and then click GO and send the courier. When that courier arrives (if he arrives) then all orders are carried out at once. In the example of targeting, you select the target IMMEDIATELY and you can forget the issue about forgetting which gun is targeting which and "oh my god I clicked on something else, the order is wasted and I've got to do it all over again".

It would also help A LOT if Garber's lights were lit. If I order him to target infantry (and he pushes down the order to his guns, which is something he DOESNT DO, you got me, if you order Garber he will NOT follow your orders even with manual targeting and not just with moving the guns)after the courier arrives, his light is NOT lit.
I had noticed this in the arty tutorial but I wanted to make sure. I checked all guns and of course I had to send couriers to all 4 guns. 4 "hit infantry" and 4 "hit the 82nd NY rgt". That makes 8 couriers when we should actually just use one (in this case to Garber). Never mind...

Let's move to the arty figures.
CSA in this tutorial has the 12lb Napoleons while USA has 3" Ordnance. We have 4 they have 6 guns.

The figures of USA on a battle that lasted 30 minutes are ALL ON INFANTRY (I took no losses at my arty) 237.
#1 51
#2 80
#3 0 (I presume bad positioning but the AI unfortunately didn't fix it)
#4 26
#5 35
#6 45

I have a limited view about the targets (and about the ammunition used) but I suspect they were all my CSA regiments in the middle of the field and in the open. I think it's too little in 30 minutes.

And here comes the CSA Artillery. Do mind that in these 30 minutes, the last 10 minutes consisted of a constant barrage of all 4 guns onto the 82nd NY which was giving the arty its side and was roughly at 400yds distance (the closest at 380yds).
Garber = 89 kills.

#1 15 (11 on 82nd NY which means in 20 minutes it killed 4)
#2 33 (3 " " " which means in 20 minutes it killed 30)
#3 16 (ALL 16 on 82nd NY which means it didn't hit shit for 20 minutes of gameplay)
#4 25 (0 on 82nd NY which means it didn't hit shit for 10 straight minutes of gameplay)

As far as I know there were NO cannister shots on either side so these figures are pretty good for judgement.

If you can't hit shit at 400yds putting the max range to 1600yds is comic. I insist on the need to build an extra table in the arty. Shell and Shrapnel are AREA EFFECT WEAPONS AND DO NOT NEED A PERFECT HIT TO CAUSE DAMAGE. Shooting a stationary target should give an increasing bonus over time. You can't miss it for ever.

Does this have to do with the fatigue? How comes the arty gets so fatigued? I didn't think 15 people pulling a cord, loading powder and putting a ball in the gun would get exhausted in 30 minutes...

IF these are the figures in the open (and the 82nd WAS in the open, HALTED, for 10 minutes straight and took 20 casualties in 10 minutes from 4 guns shooting 400 yds away!) what of the arty when the target is far away or when it's in cover?

I almost always play historic or custom mode and always use couriers. The courier issues you bring up have solutions. In fact I wrote a tutorial/AAR covering the courier system a while ago. It's in the NSD News section. Give it a read. It will make using the courier system much more enjoyable.

Figure out in order to move a division to a place, give it double quick and select formation you've got to send 3 couriers... Isn't it more logical to open a courier window, select ALL the orders, and only then hit GO and send just one courier? ? ? ? ? ?

Yes, you can put more than one command in a courier order. Here is the typical order I give to move a brigade, division or corps.
1. Move your unit to the location specified.
2. Face your unit in this direction.
3. Change to this formation.
4. Hold.
5. Use roads.

This is all in one courier order. The unit will then march to the nearest road and take it the the specified location, change to the specified formation, facing in the desired direction and assume the ordered stance.

in the meanwhile you have no idea whether or not the orders arrived... you might even not be able to see the arrows due to terrain (or use of command map).

They always get there. I actually would prefer if there was a small chance that they didn't. That would make for a realistic courier system.

so my artillery was totally safe, EXACTLY on the starting spot despite my numerous (at least 5) attempts to move it. I could even see the strategic order marker on the other side of the field (trying to move the arty on the hill exactly where the obj is by making use of the roads) but Garber never moved.

I actually find moving the arty with courier orders easier than using the buttons. The one thing you MUST do is give the No Orders command first. Otherwise the arty commander will ignore you and continue to fire on the targets he already has. Here are the orders I give.
1. No orders.
2. Move your unit to the specified location.
3. Use roads (optional, only if desired)

Again, this is one courier order. It always works, unless the guns are using cannister.

If I order him to target infantry (and he pushes down the order to his guns, which is something he DOESNT DO, you got me, if you order Garber he will NOT follow your orders even with manual targeting and not just with moving the guns)after the courier arrives, his light is NOT lit.

You are correct that the buttons don't light-up on the battery commanders toolbar. I too view that as a bug. But the order is transmitted to the individual guns. If you click on them you'll see that they are targeting infantry, (their button is lit), if there is a valid unit to fire at.

Am reading your AAR, a very good one and seeing how you use the courier. I did not use the courier window for individual units and it's a bit tricky with generals because of their wish to carry out the strat orders first (hence your suggestion of "no orders").

Are there any good mods in use for this version? Are you using modified artillery files? Do you agree that the artillery figures while still being much better than before are still inaccurate?