Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?
Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?
Long before the Rebs fired on Fort Sumter the war was on. If you check out your History 20 years of war was going on in this country and it was within our Churches. Ever wonder why we have Southern Baptist Churches and Just Batptist Churches. Because they split due to the fact that Northern Baptist were pointing fingers at the Baptist in the south and telling them how bad they were for holding people in bondage and the southern Baptist were saying "Mind your own Business" There was a lot of things that led up to the Civil War and this was just one of them. Did Lincoln Start it? No he was forced into it by the Southern States. He could not idley sit by while Fort Sumter was being shelled and say "Oh well thats how the cookie crumbles" no more than Bush could have watched the twin towers go down and say "Oh well thats how the cookie crumbles" There had to be some type of retaliation for the boldness of the Southern Move on Sumpter. The war was not directly started over Slavery but became an issue as the war progressed because Lincoln was counting on the freeing of slaves to keep England and France at bay. How many slaves were actually freed by the Emancipation Proclomation..Not many..How many Southern Land owners stood up and said "OK ya all go home now ya hair'" It was a political move on Lincolns part and it worked. No Lincoln didnt start the war but he sure finished it. I believe the South had no chance at winning the war although they had what I would call Superior Generals they could not sustain a long war for lack of materials which in the end cought up with them..On the other hand the North had a limitless suppply of men and weapons to sustain a war for a long period of time. It was just a matter of when would the South run out of supplies and men that would eventually end the war..
Suh, the enemy is there and I will strike him there....
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?
Salmin wrote:
The North definitely did not have a limitless supply of men. Even in 1864 as Grant was suffering tens of thousands of causalities there were mass riots in the North for peace. Mothers were tired of sending their sons off to die in Tennessee and Virginia and hundreds of other places that weren't even on the map until the armies came through and left behind their carnage. If Sherman hadn't taken Savannah and carved a way straight through to the sea, there was a good chance the Peace Democrats (McClellan included) could have taken over the government..On the other hand the North had a limitless suppply of men and weapons to sustain a war for a long period of time. It was just a matter of when would the South run out of supplies and men that would eventually end the war..
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure.
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?
I disagree! Maybe at home, the vote would be for peace, but the hundreds of thousands of Union soldiers wanted to finish the war now, so I believe that Lincoln would have won anyway.
I believe the Civil War started with the Declaration of Indpendence and the Constitution.
All men are created equal. Free blacks fighting the Rev. War???? I wonder? Southern states getting to keep importing slaves until 1805, afterwards, hence, the Black Market!
Who started the Civil War? Our founding fathers! Lincoln was the cause of southern states seceding, yes. Did Lincoln have the right to control all states, maybe. But he definitly did not start the civil war.
I believe the Civil War started with the Declaration of Indpendence and the Constitution.
All men are created equal. Free blacks fighting the Rev. War???? I wonder? Southern states getting to keep importing slaves until 1805, afterwards, hence, the Black Market!
Who started the Civil War? Our founding fathers! Lincoln was the cause of southern states seceding, yes. Did Lincoln have the right to control all states, maybe. But he definitly did not start the civil war.
Hancock the Superb
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?
Hancock the Superb wrote:
I was not trying to make the point that the Union soldiers were for McClellan, in the soldiers' ballots Lincoln absolutely crushed McClellan. On the home front where I was trying to make the point that many people wanted the war over. And good points about the Revolution and founding fathers. At the Battle of New Orleans (in 1814, not the 1862 one) Jackson made up part of his line with slaves and free-blacks. Some whites didn't want to get into the trenches in with the blacks, thinking that it was demeaning, Jackson did was Jackson did best- he told them off and they got in the trench.I disagree! Maybe at home, the vote would be for peace, but the hundreds of thousands of Union soldiers wanted to finish the war now, so I believe that Lincoln would have won anyway.
I believe the Civil War started with the Declaration of Indpendence and the Constitution.
All men are created equal. Free blacks fighting the Rev. War???? I wonder? Southern states getting to keep importing slaves until 1805, afterwards, hence, the Black Market!
Who started the Civil War? Our founding fathers! .
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure.
Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?
"Free blacks fighting the Rev. War???? I wonder? "
Lord Dunmore of Virginia offered freedom to slaves who escaped and fought for the British in 1775. I would wager that a huge majority of blacks who fought in the Revolutionary War fought for the British. His proclamation did a lot to turn fence sitting Virginians against him. When the British governor fled with his loyalists and escaped slaves to Gwynn's Island in the Cheasepeake Bay they were blockaded by Virginia militia and faced a starving period. Eventually the Royal Navy came and rescued Dunmore and the Royalists. The escaped slaves were left to their fate.
This is an example of the laws of unintended consequences. Lincoln faced this same decision in when he issued the Emancipation Proclamation--what unforseen events would it trigger? Would he gain or lose support within his own army? Would it be looked upon as an act of desperation? The second stage--the actual arming of black regiments had similar uncertainties built in. Would the white soldiers fight side by side with a black regiment? What would happen if the black regiments ran? What would happen to captured black soldiers? Would there be massacres?
Would it inflame the Southern border states?
The simple moral issue of freeing black slaves by Emancipation was not as clear cut as we think of today.
Just as fascinating is the Confederate decision making on this same issue. By 1864 Lee himself was advocating exchanging freedom for slaves in return for military service. This event actually took place in 1865 and there are Confederate black soldiers who fought in the Civil War. It is most interesting to run into blacks who can trace their lineage to soldiers who fought for the CSA. One of them gave me a tour at the White House of the Confederacy in Richmond!
Lord Dunmore of Virginia offered freedom to slaves who escaped and fought for the British in 1775. I would wager that a huge majority of blacks who fought in the Revolutionary War fought for the British. His proclamation did a lot to turn fence sitting Virginians against him. When the British governor fled with his loyalists and escaped slaves to Gwynn's Island in the Cheasepeake Bay they were blockaded by Virginia militia and faced a starving period. Eventually the Royal Navy came and rescued Dunmore and the Royalists. The escaped slaves were left to their fate.
This is an example of the laws of unintended consequences. Lincoln faced this same decision in when he issued the Emancipation Proclamation--what unforseen events would it trigger? Would he gain or lose support within his own army? Would it be looked upon as an act of desperation? The second stage--the actual arming of black regiments had similar uncertainties built in. Would the white soldiers fight side by side with a black regiment? What would happen if the black regiments ran? What would happen to captured black soldiers? Would there be massacres?
Would it inflame the Southern border states?
The simple moral issue of freeing black slaves by Emancipation was not as clear cut as we think of today.
Just as fascinating is the Confederate decision making on this same issue. By 1864 Lee himself was advocating exchanging freedom for slaves in return for military service. This event actually took place in 1865 and there are Confederate black soldiers who fought in the Civil War. It is most interesting to run into blacks who can trace their lineage to soldiers who fought for the CSA. One of them gave me a tour at the White House of the Confederacy in Richmond!
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?
Oh, I agree with your ideas of the Emancipation Proclamation.
I'm just saying that the Civil War wasn't caused by Lincoln.
I'm just saying that the Civil War wasn't caused by Lincoln.
Hancock the Superb
Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?
So if Lincoln was just reacting to the conditions of the time, and most would have done the same thing. The question is, who is the one person (if there is one) who's actions started the civil war? Is there a single person that if we changed their actions or speaches during that time, the war would or could have been avoided?
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?
norb wrote:
John C Calhoun was talking about secession even from Jackson's presidency (the 1830s) now I'm sure someone is going to argue that if a Northerner had changed their attitude things would be different, but Calhoun preached secession for so long that I think a huge responsibility with the war needs to lie with him.So if Lincoln was just reacting to the conditions of the time, and most would have done the same thing. The question is, who is the one person (if there is one) who's actions started the civil war? Is there a single person that if we changed their actions or speaches during that time, the war would or could have been avoided?
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure.
Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?
My guess would be Taney, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, who led the court to the Dred Scott decision. If he could have influenced the Court to hand down decisions that chipped away against the institution of slavery then he may have kept the country out of war. Unfortunately, he was the wrong man in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Another nominee would be Buchannan, who literally presided over a seismic rift widening in the waning days of his administation. He found himself a prisoner of events without exerting any Presidential influence at all.
My home state of Virginia produced a rabid secessionist, Edmund Ruffin, who literally could not wait to fire the first shot against the Federal troops in Fort Sumpter. I sometimes wondered how the actions of the few influenced the will of the many. When Stephen Douglas' nomination was railroaded out of the Democratic nominating convention in Charleston the die was cast. Charleston caught Secessionist fever. It may have been the worst place to host a nominating convention because the city itself definitely had an influence on the results of the convention. The extreme elements were destined to take over the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party was in 1859 the last national party left, with the Whigs having disappeared. The Republican Party did not exist in the southern states and had its base in the Northwestern states. When the Democrats failed to nominate Stephen Douglas they split up into two irreconcilable wings, a northern and southern. This guaranteed the Presidential race to the nominee of the Republican Party. Thus the only party that had a prayer of keeping the country united was doomed.
Another nominee would be Buchannan, who literally presided over a seismic rift widening in the waning days of his administation. He found himself a prisoner of events without exerting any Presidential influence at all.
My home state of Virginia produced a rabid secessionist, Edmund Ruffin, who literally could not wait to fire the first shot against the Federal troops in Fort Sumpter. I sometimes wondered how the actions of the few influenced the will of the many. When Stephen Douglas' nomination was railroaded out of the Democratic nominating convention in Charleston the die was cast. Charleston caught Secessionist fever. It may have been the worst place to host a nominating convention because the city itself definitely had an influence on the results of the convention. The extreme elements were destined to take over the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party was in 1859 the last national party left, with the Whigs having disappeared. The Republican Party did not exist in the southern states and had its base in the Northwestern states. When the Democrats failed to nominate Stephen Douglas they split up into two irreconcilable wings, a northern and southern. This guaranteed the Presidential race to the nominee of the Republican Party. Thus the only party that had a prayer of keeping the country united was doomed.
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?
Great post, dale!
I would have to agree.
However, I believe that the original reason for the Civil War lies with Hamilton and Jefferson, even though Jefferson had no problems about slavery - he was a honest and good slave owner from what I've read. However, these ideas sparked state's rights, which is essentially the cause of the Civil War (remember, the states wanted to vote wether to have slavery or not).
I would have to agree.
However, I believe that the original reason for the Civil War lies with Hamilton and Jefferson, even though Jefferson had no problems about slavery - he was a honest and good slave owner from what I've read. However, these ideas sparked state's rights, which is essentially the cause of the Civil War (remember, the states wanted to vote wether to have slavery or not).
Hancock the Superb