Canister Reaction, Artillery Improvements Request

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Willard
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Re: Canister Reaction, Artillery Improvements Request

Post by Willard »

Well, Reb, sorry, but wrong again. Most players keep their guns out of musket range. I'm not saying guns don't get shot up ever, but most of the time, they get moved before they get shot up. The only exception is when the guns are tired and a player must pull his division back and can't get his guns limbered because they are exhausted.

You may not like it, but the 220 yard rifles are very effective at making players keep their guns out of the front lines. Personally, I hated the guns up front canister defense we saw so often in the early years of this game.
Soldier is correct. The only reason we have 220 yard rifles is because counter-battery fire is nerfed in stock SOW. In order to have effective CB fire, the stats have to be raised so high that 3-inch guns become the ultimate ahistoric weapon on the digital battlefield. The result was that two 3-inch batteries alone (anyone remember Robinson's???) could devastate an infantry before it could even make contact with the enemy.

During the CW, batteries supported by infantry stood up pretty well under infantry fire in sustained firefights with the enemy infantry well within 200 yards. Unsupported batteries didn't do as well but in specific circumstances could hold their own while still taking casualties (the Wheatfield and Iuka are two notable examples).

Long range infantry fire didn't have as much an effect as it is often presumed. Men manning the batteries would often retire until a skirmish line formed up and cleared the frontage. Even when that didn't happen, long range infantry fire was often a greater myth than reality as the issue isn't what could be hit on the proving ground in optimal conditions but the actual common results on the dynamic battlefield.
KG_Soldier
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Re: Canister Reaction, Artillery Improvements Request

Post by KG_Soldier »

However the differences of opinion here seem to be often missing the main points.The software has been changed multiple times by Norb, and even the GCM software by Garnier the same,and all for the simple reason that people can't agree to NOT abuse the flaws in a piece of work. :blink:
That to me is the worrying part.
If the rule sets must constantly be changed to protect from abuse the software playability then surely there is a problem with the groups ideals and not the software.
The GCM isn't a historical society married to recreating the civil war experience; we want big, tough battles that we can play in 90 minutes which use as historically accurate tactics as we can. 90% of the changes Garnier has made to the GCM are to improve gameplay and encourage more historical tactics. However, we have too many players to create and enforce a bunch of "gentleman's" rules -- even though we do use one: we don't use officers to scout more than 200 yards from friendly infantry.

The Hits and Couriers group has a big advantage here; they don't have new players and basically play with the same 4 to 8 guys every battle. So it's not hard to use a set of rules about which tactics are allowed and which are not. I wish we (the GCM) could go back to playing 50 yards from the saddle like we used to, but there's no way we can do that and expect new players (and we get a lot of new players) to function in a game like that. So we're stuck at 150 to 200 yards from the saddle, and the new guys certainly struggle with that -- ask the new player Mr. AVS Jones.

The bottom line is that GCM games today are more historically accurate in terms of tactics than they have ever been: attacks, retreats, flanks, ambushes, counter-attacks. . . we have them all. We are a thriving community which adds new players often. Having so many new players forces us to compromise our settings.

We fully support NSD in every way. We completely support the efforts of the Hits and Couriers group. We hold no animosity toward them; but I don't think the reverse is true.
Garnier
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Re: Canister Reaction, Artillery Improvements Request

Post by Garnier »

We hold no animosity toward them; but I don't think the reverse is true.
I would not say that. Groups are made up of individuals who may or may not be of one mind.
Last edited by Garnier on Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Play Scourge of War Multiplayer! www.sowmp.com
Also try the singleplayer carryover campaign
KG_Soldier
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Re: Canister Reaction, Artillery Improvements Request

Post by KG_Soldier »

We hold no animosity toward them; but I don't think the reverse is true.
I would not say that. Groups are made up of individuals who may or may not be of one mind.
You're right, and ever the politician.
General P R Cleburne
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Re: Canister Reaction, Artillery Improvements Request

Post by General P R Cleburne »

However the differences of opinion here seem to be often missing the main points.The software has been changed multiple times by Norb, and even the GCM software by Garnier the same,and all for the simple reason that people can't agree to NOT abuse the flaws in a piece of work. :blink:
That to me is the worrying part.
If the rule sets must constantly be changed to protect from abuse the software playability then surely there is a problem with the groups ideals and not the software.
The GCM isn't a historical society married to recreating the civil war experience; we want big, tough battles that we can play in 90 minutes which use as historically accurate tactics as we can. 90% of the changes Garnier has made to the GCM are to improve gameplay and encourage more historical tactics. However, we have too many players to create and enforce a bunch of "gentleman's" rules -- even though we do use one: we don't use officers to scout more than 200 yards from friendly infantry.

The Hits and Couriers group has a big advantage here; they don't have new players and basically play with the same 4 to 8 guys every battle. So it's not hard to use a set of rules about which tactics are allowed and which are not. I wish we (the GCM) could go back to playing 50 yards from the saddle like we used to, but there's no way we can do that and expect new players (and we get a lot of new players) to function in a game like that. So we're stuck at 150 to 200 yards from the saddle, and the new guys certainly struggle with that -- ask the new player Mr. AVS Jones.

The bottom line is that GCM games today are more historically accurate in terms of tactics than they have ever been: attacks, retreats, flanks, ambushes, counter-attacks. . . we have them all. We are a thriving community which adds new players often. Having so many new players forces us to compromise our settings.

We fully support NSD in every way. We completely support the efforts of the Hits and Couriers group. We hold no animosity toward them; but I don't think the reverse is true.


You really need not explain GCM lore to me.I was part of it for a long time,not far from its roots(on this software anyhow),and i still pop by when i can to chat or fight the odd battle.I fully get the picture.
KG_Soldier
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Re: Canister Reaction, Artillery Improvements Request

Post by KG_Soldier »

Sorry Cleburne. . . but this idea that all the changes made to the GCM by Garnier are to combat gamey tactics simply isn't true. Your post perpetuates this misnomer.
General P R Cleburne
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Re: Canister Reaction, Artillery Improvements Request

Post by General P R Cleburne »

Well maybe you have some sort of point and i will refrain from making any more posts about this topic.
I fully respect what Garnier has built and will continue to build i'm sure.
I also like the MOD that MTG has made and i would recommend to all who haven't tried it to try it.Its a great simulation.I think ideally both Mods should be accepted by all and enjoyed.
KG_Soldier
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Re: Canister Reaction, Artillery Improvements Request

Post by KG_Soldier »

Well maybe you have some sort of point and i will refrain from making any more posts about this topic.
I fully respect what Garnier has built and will continue to build i'm sure.
I also like the MOD that MTG has made and i would recommend to all who haven't tried it to try it.Its a great simulation.I think ideally both Mods should be accepted by all and enjoyed.
I've tried out MTG's Hits and Couriers Mod in single player and agree it's pretty cool. One of these days I'm going to make a Hits and Couriers game, but I never know when they are going to take place and the one I was there for I was informed you had to sign up early because they made a scenario so there wasn't any extra brigades or guns I could command.
Martin James
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Re: Canister Reaction, Artillery Improvements Request

Post by Martin James »

We hold no animosity toward them; but I don't think the reverse is true.
I would not say that. Groups are made up of individuals who may or may not be of one mind.
You're dead right about that, Garnier. I'm a member of the HITS & Couriers group, and we contain all sorts, and a mixture of views. As, I imagine, does GCM.

I like to play the game in a different way, but that's as far as it goes. Speaking for myself, I'm glad GCM exists, and believe it has made a positive contribution to SOW.

Martin
Martin James
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Re: Canister Reaction, Artillery Improvements Request

Post by Martin James »

[quote]

Actually, they're a lot more of us than that, KGS B) Having recently revised our contact list, I see we have 25 players on the rolls, although some do play more regularly than others. Our largest games are 10-12.

Some other recent comments have implied that we just play against the AI. Depending on numbers we are just as happy playing as 2 teams, and for our larger games invariably do that. With smaller numbers, we often play vs the AI instead of having 2 small teams, as this enables us to create a proper chain of command, which is part of the fun for us.

You raise an interesting issue re agreeing houserules. It's not something we've had a problem with, so far. Perhaps we play more for the experience than for the competition? No one has every tried using the column charge for example. One of our group did suggest recently that we should perhaps codify some houserules. Someone's mentioned a good one on this thread in terms of limiting player scouting to within a few hundred yards of friendly troops, and I will suggest we pinch that idea for our games :)

Martin
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