Re: Building a map, start of a project, help will be needed

[RebBugler]

There are some fuzzy areas for sure.
There are some maps with "uncrossable" rivers, but you can still retreat over them so they are not absolutely uncrossable.

If this is a known and unsolvable issue, I will need to start a much smaller map with very little water. Possible, but not really what I wanted, as I hoped to march the units to the battle line.

As far as I'm concerned, this engine's treatments to bodies of water is its major issue. The large pond near the middle of the QB historic battle area was a pain to script around while striving for historic movements. Matt worked with me trying to make the pond less of an impediment, to no avail. Terrain 0 (no move) and 25 (move around) works but the battalions split in half, the halves proceeding in opposite directions around the pond (uniting many minutes later on the opposite side of the pond), even if their path barely touches the ponds edge...UGLY. And during that journey to reunite the units are vulnerable as hell as they can't fight until reunited...Even more UGLY. And, as discussed, the retreats into the water issue.

With hindsight, I'm wondering if at least the retreat issues can be subdued somewhat. There's no known way to keep retreating troops out of the water, but if you remove movement speed and fatigue penalties in the map.csv file for that body of water at least those retreated troops could return to battle in a timely manner, and not exhausted.

If that works you can keep your BIG body of water. Possibly making it a different gray scale from rivers so that rivers can be crossed retaining their movement and fatigue penalties.

[52ndOx]

My map is fundamentally like this:



Most of the battle is fought in "A", but there are some forces in "B".
If they can move "D" instead of making a long march via the bridge at "C", then the battle is broken.

Terrain 0 (no move) and 25 (move around) works

What did you do at QB?
If I set the water to 0 with a 25 border then units still cross, (and they do too at QB when playing the Namur Road scenario, if you don't take steps to stop it).

I considered placing buildings around the shoreline and hiding them, but it seems a waste of processing power that we are always short of anyway. I don't even know if it would work.

It really should be possible in a battle simulation engine to make impassable terrain, it is fundamental to many battles.

(By the way, I know this map is useless for sandbox, there is no way to stop troops spawning in the Atlantic)

[RebBugler]

What did you do at QB?
If I set the water to 0 with a 25 border then units still cross, (and they do too at QB when playing the Namur Road scenario, if you don't take steps to stop it).

I don't recall without testing but I'll take your word for it...It's been a while. Maybe Matt just experimented with the numbers that caused the units to split and go around but the UGLIES I mentioned were just too much so that method was axed. If I'm correct with this assumption maybe Matt (Little Powell) will weigh in.

[Crikey]

As Reb and D said, water is a problem in the engine. A shame, but there it is. You can make the AI walk around it by making hidden paths using grayscale 25, these need to connect to roads. However troops that have been completely broken retreat across it. Reb’s suggested solution is a reasonable compromise to stop troops who could reform from being hit with further health penalties.

Btw you can stop troops from deploying on the ocean initially by amending one of the values in the middle columns in the mapname.csv, can’t remember name right now.

Finally, I’ll post you a Dropbox link for some useful textures, sounds etc for a coastal setting when I can. In the meantime I suggest you check out my Spanish maps in the lace wars pack. See recent thread. Some textures and buildings you can use.

Nice work so far. B)

[52ndOx]

As Reb and D said, water is a problem in the engine. A shame, but there it is. You can make the AI walk around it by making hidden paths using grayscale 25, these need to connect to roads. However troops that have been completely broken retreat across it. Reb’s suggested solution is a reasonable compromise to stop troops who could reform from being hit with further health penalties.

Btw you can stop troops from deploying on the ocean initially by amending one of the values in the middle columns in the mapname.csv, can’t remember name right now.

Finally, I’ll post you a Dropbox link for some useful textures, sounds etc for a coastal setting when I can. In the meantime I suggest you check out my Spanish maps in the lace wars pack. See recent thread. Some textures and buildings you can use.

Nice work so far. B)

Thanks!
That's maybe why it doesn't work for me. I have road textures in PRs rgbs, but no network in the map.bmp yet.
I am not even sure how they work, I know there can be errors where roads don't link. Not got there yet.

Great with some Spanish textures and/or models.
I asked in the GB forum about possibilities of using assets from the KS Spanish maps. If they are yours, then I assume I can then?

I know how to make terrain sprites and add them (like the ships in a shot above), and maybe even make some models (I have quite a lot of experience modelling and texturing in both FSD3 and Blender, but I am all for saving time)

[Crikey]

Yep, mapname.bmp will be I influential.

3D objects .... I suggest you start with the 3D objects in the Lace Wars pack as they’re probably more up to date than those in my older maps. Check out the Almansa map.

I assume you have the beginnings of the mapname.bmp sketched out to act as template for your RGBs in PR? It’s easier to start with that I’ve found.. You don’t need to complete the fiddly road stuff until the end. Just mark where they’ll be.

[52ndOx]

Yep, mapname.bmp will be I influential.

3D objects .... I suggest you start with the 3D objects in the Lace Wars pack as they’re probably more up to date than those in my older maps. Check out the Almansa map.

I assume you have the beginnings of the mapname.bmp sketched out to act as template for your RGBs in PR? It’s easier to start with that I’ve found.. You don’t need to complete the fiddly road stuff until the end. Just mark where they’ll be.

Everything is based on a historical map which shows terrain (including contours with values), roads, towns, rivers, coastline etc. This is the template for everything.

The BMP and 4 RGBs are equal size and stacked in layers in Gimp along with that map.
That way everything lines up, and areas can be copied/deleted/blended from file to file.
It's actually quite easy now it's set up and I understand the interelationship between PR files and SOW files.

I really appreciate folk with so much knowhow contributing to this thread. I have learned a lot, and hopefully others can too.

[DarkRob]

There are some fuzzy areas for sure.
There are some maps with "uncrossable" rivers, but you can still retreat over them so they are not absolutely uncrossable.

Gahh. I remember this from years ago. I think its even worse than that because, if memory serves, once a unit retreated across uncrossable rivers it removed the uncrossable status of said river for that unit. So for any unit that retreated across one, the river from then on was crossable, at least for the AI. I always had trouble trying to purposely make this work for me, or in my favor.

Even as late as the Wavre expansion, water has always been just straight up weird in this game. In the Wavre scenarios there are so many instances of units crossing the supposedly uncrossable, swollen Dyle River that I began to dub them secret fords. Sometimes even fresh units that hadn't been engaged yet would cross. Just weird.

Fortunately crossing rivers so slows down movement and crushes fatigue that there is very little good reason to try and do this in the face of the enemy.

[Davinci]

With hindsight, I'm wondering if at least the retreat issues can be subdued somewhat. There's no known way to keep retreating troops out of the water, but if you remove movement speed and fatigue penalties in the map.csv file for that body of water at least those retreated troops could return to battle in a timely manner, and not exhausted.

What if it was possible to go in the other direction with this, since it is impossible to Stop the units from entering the "Water", what if the Movement Speed was something like "minus a thousand" in the water.

Do, retreating units become affected by the movement speeds of the Map, I can't remember.

When I added that red bridge on the Gettysburg Map, I did try invisible walls and everything else to try to stop them from going through the walls, nothing ever did work.

I do remember that retreating troops will not go through a structure, but around it, but never did try placing large boulders with a radius around water.

davinci

[Davinci]

If I set the water to 0 with a 25 border then units still cross, (and they do too at QB when playing the Namur Road scenario, if you don't take steps to stop it).

The ( 25 ) border applied to the Mapname.bmp described by "Crikey" is just an "invisible road \ path" that was put into the Game during the TC2M days, by "Norb".

In order for it to work correctly, it has to be tied to the current road-system or it won't work.

It does nothing to prevent the units from entering the water.

"52ndOx" - BTW - Your Map is looking good for someone that just started this Process!

davinci