Formations

[gunship24]

I was wondering if you guys had any thoughts on the formation used in the mod. In particualr there are two which i dont know if they look, these are Skirmish and Attack Column. Im think on changing the shirmish formations to have a maximum of 25 sprites (equally 100 men) in a loose formation ahead of the rest of the unit, thus for large units it would look like the battalion as sent out its light company and for small units it would be like a skirmish formation with reserve. At the moment there are 60 sprites in the skirmish bit with the rest ast the reserve, so this would be a big change. The flag carrier would still have to go in the skirmish section.

The other formation is attack column (or as its called in the stock game coulmn of divisions). I fell this formation is fairly 'gappy' and does look like an attack column, but maybe thats historical? It might be im used to table top gaming the attack columns are a mass of men, do you think there are any improvements here visually?

perhaps you like them as is?

any feedback would be good.

cheers

[Davinci]

gunship – are you sure that you can convert a regular line with a (125) sprites, and have them go into a skirmish formation with a lower number.

What does the game do with all of the extra sprites?

I’ve never tried that, but I doubt that it would work!

davinci

[gunship24]

Hi Dav,

I probably didnt explain it well, what i meant was instead of the current formation which has about 60 sprites in the skirmisher part and 60 forming the reserve, i would change it so the skirmish part is much smaller and the reserve part is a lot bigger. This would give the look of a unit sending out its light company ahead while the rest stayed behind.

[Saddletank]

Hi Gunship

I like the idea of the attempt to show a skirmish company deployed ahead of a formed unit. The only issue with that is, will the skirmishers 'reserve' be in line or a column of divisions? If it becomes a significant block of men it would look strange in, say, a column when the skirmishers were screening a linear defense (such as a British position).

Conversely the 'supports' would look strange formed in line when the rest of the advancing brigade or division was deployed in a column formation.

I'm pretty sure the formation cannot be changed so we'd be stuck with a formation that 50% of the time would look incongrous.

I think the best reasoning is still to disperse 100% of a formation into a skirmish line, but make the skirmish line much deeper and more irregular than it now is and also make it smaller (fewer sprites). In the 1815 campaign the Prussians could and did use any of their infantry as skirmishers and I believe the French did likewise throughout the wars. I think though that to keep them from being unwieldy, skirmish units should be smaller than 'line' units.

The problem is that in SoW all infantry can skirmish. Can you make the distinction that certain units cannot? If that's possible I would set aside certain units within an OOB as designated skirmisher units and make them about half the strength of the regular battalions. For example a Bavarian jager battalion would be represented by two half battalions and the player could have one skirmishing or both, or neither.

For the British in the Peninsula who frequently brigaded together their light companies for a whole brigade (say 3 or 4 companies) I would suggest that in each British or KGL brigade 3 or 4 regular battalions, plus a 'converged light coys "batalion", which could skirmish. For the Portuguese it would be 3 or 4 line battalions and a skirmish-capable Cacadore battalion but possibly split into two half battalions. Rather annoyingly for us wargamers they sometimes added a company or two of rifles to some brigades as well. That would require truly very small units.

On the column formation, what SoW does is exactly correct. A column of companies was made up with each company (or half company) formed in line with officers in front and NCOs in rear marching one behind the other with significant gaps to allow for maneouvre and co-ordination. So please don't squash up the lines in these columns, the idea of solid blocks of men comes from figure gaming and of course, Total War which doesn't allow for proper formations!

A column of divisions was two companies (a division) deployed side by side in line, the divisions behind each other, thus a book-strength late-war French battalion deployed in column of divisions would be 9 men deep and about 90 men wide - a very shallow wide column, but this is what columns were like. The wargame miniatures hobby has completely distorted people's ideas of how deep columns were.

At Waterloo when D'Erlon's corps advanced in divisional columns, the battalions of these were actually in 3-deep lines, but each battalion formed behind the other, an extremely unwieldy formation and one that of course would have to halt to dress ranks as frequently as a single battalion in line would have to - thus the idea of columns being faster than lines is a fallacy, men march at the drill pacing they are trained to by their nations drill books whatever formation they are in (even square).

The slower pace of squares and lines moving is due to them having to halt more frequently to ensure good order.

A pet peeve of mine in Total War, squares should be much smaller and much denser that they are depicted there. Squares faces were 4-deep, not 2-deep, the TW guys got these totally wrong (which IMHO is what 'TW' stands for).

[gunship24]

Thanks saddletank that is some good feedback.

The skirmish and column of divisions in the Road to Wagram mod are modded versions of the stock SoW ones. First off the skirmish formation is modded so the gap between the reserve and the skirmishing sprites has been reduced by about 30% to make it more compact in the battles. The column of divisions is modded to be wider (i think) then the stock one and had about a 80 man frontage (20 sprites).

I currently have a system where line units cannot skirmishers but light units can, e.g french ligne cannot but legere can. This is done on the toolbar by removing the skirmish button. So that is in the game already.

My idea of the new skirmish formation was an attempt to do away with the current system i have of detaching light companies in the OOB to form converged battalions merely so the light troops had a presence on the field. In some battles this was done but a lot of the time the light company remained with the battalion. So my new skirmish formation would look like a normal line but with 25 or so sprites moved forward in skirmish interval, with the remainer left behind not forming the 'reserve' but would be like the fusilier companies of the battalion. So if a unit was in Line and the skirmish formation was pressed then the end section would deploy ahead of the unit, then when Line was pressed the skirmishes would be recalled back into line. There would be some restirction so some units could not skirmish at all.

[Saddletank]

Can you go for both concepts? Part of a battalion skirmishing and entire light units skirmishing? Or are we stuck with only one skirmish formation? If we are stuck with one I would please ask that you stay with entire skirmish units rather than representing fusilier battalions with their voltigeur companies deployed. I think that would be too restrictive to adequately descrbe what other nations did (such as the British).

[Jack ONeill]

All,

The Column of Divisions is historically correct. Digby is right, as far as he went. In reality, the formation we use is actually too close together. French drill manuals called for an advance by battalions in column of division, screened by the light companies of each battalion, (skirmishers), or an entire battalion of light, (Legere), infantry. As the formation approached the enemy lines, the battalion columns were to deploy into line and open fire. The columns were to be far eoough apart so as to facilitate this process, and also to allow the skirmish units to fall back through the gaps. As it stands now, we cannot deploy into line without confusion, as the columns are too close together. To use the aformentioned Waterloo example, when D'Erlon attacked, his far right Division commander, Durutte, (a real veteran, scar on his face and all), realized the order of Column of Division by Battalions wouldn't work, and deployed his units in the better, more flexible column of Battalions by Divisions. It was noted that his Division actually made gains in the English lines, while the remaining 3 Divisions were routed on his left, forcing him to withdraw. (There is some evidence to suggest that Napoleon actually ordered the correct formations to be used, but Soult, unfamiliar in his role as Army Chief of Staff, got it backward and D'Erlon didn't question it.)
I could go on with this, but will see if it is necessary.

Skirmishers - Gun, good idea. However, I believe my mod of the skirmish line would work as well. It is easily adjusted to get what you ma think is the right fit.

Jack B)

Gun, just re-read your post regarding the sort-of combo line and light infantry formation. I see only one drawback - the troops supposedly in line will be firing when the skirmishers do, instead of standing in reserve. Just a thought.

[Davinci]

I probably didn’t explain it well, what I meant was instead of the current formation which has about 60 sprites in the skirmisher part and 60 forming the reserve.

You probably explained it correctly; I probably just misunderstood what you were saying.

I see only one drawback - the troops supposedly in line will be firing when the skirmishers do, instead of standing in reserve. Just a thought.

Not really, the drills file does allow for you to stop certain units for firing.

davinci

[Jack ONeill]

More -

The French had major problems with the Column of Battalions by Division throughout the Wars. In the beginning, What was left of the Regular army was too small, and the new Volunteer Battalions to un-trained, to actually put the Regulations regarding the advance to use. This led to the using the column for everything, as Digby mentioned earlier. The column was preceeded by clouds of skirmishers, followed up by the advancing, cheering, singing, volunteers, crowding forward in column, then charging home (in theory).
Flash forward to the Peninsula - a better trained French Army against a well-trained Allied Army, (the British and later Portuguese anyway.) With Wellinton's penchant for using the terrain for masking his troop deployments, the French attack foundered on this rock. Wellington countered the french light troops with his own, thereby keeping his battleline concealed from the advancing French. The French would therefore advance somewhat blindly when they would reach the British troops before they knew it, and not having time to deploy into line to counter the British firepower. A couple of volleys, then a charge, and generally the French went streaming back in confusion.

Note to Digby -

D,

The use of the column of Division by Battalions formation at Waterloo is the only time I have ever seen or have any evidence of it being used. Doesn't mean they didn't, I just don't have any info on it. If done right, the French column of attack was extremely flexible and effective. If done wrong, you get most Peninsula Battles against the Birtish and D'Erlons attack at Waterloo.

[Jack ONeill]

DaV,

Didn't know that. Thanks.

Jack B)