Brigade Combat Tutorial

Stuck in a part of the game. Here's where the Grogs help the Newbies. Share your best strategies for winning and try someone elses.
Marching Thru Georgia
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Re: Brigade Combat Tutorial

Post by Marching Thru Georgia »

Garnier wrote:
I think what you mean is that the AI commander only sees units that are in line of sight to the commander according to how the game calculates line of sight. This has no similarity with human players using HITS.
No. If I sit next to an AI commander and can see no enemy, neither can that AI commander. There may be a huge fight that his subordinates are fighting behind a hill 400 yd. away, but if I can't see it neither can he. He will know nothing of it and will issue no orders concerning it.
Thus is not correct to describe what the AI sees as being like what humans physically see when they restrict their camera
What is the basis of this conclusion? If I can see a flag 2000 yd. away sitting on a horse so can the AI. What he decides to do about it, if anything, is unknown to me. I don't know if the AI has a 'T' key, but if you play HITS you don't use that cheat either. The only line of sight obstacle that I am sure does not hinder the AI's view is smoke.
I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.
Garnier
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Re: Brigade Combat Tutorial

Post by Garnier »

but if I can't see it neither can he
So you think the AI cannot see through the tree sprites? What if I mod the tree sprites so they are solid black and really huge. Then the AI will not even be able to see troops on a big bare hill behind the trees?

I could also mod the unit sprites to be 1000ft tall. Then I will be able to see any unit that is visible to my team even if I am using HITS, and even if the units are behind hills or inside woods or whatever. Do you think the AI "sees" the same thing? I do not.


The game calculates line of sight between units, so the game knows if a given unit can see another unit, and this does not necessarily correspond to what a human player would be able to see if he was playing HITS from that location, because the game will render any unit that is visible to the player's team, not just those the player has LOS to. The AI has to use the game's LOS calculation, since there is no rendering of graphics going on for the AI.
Last edited by Garnier on Wed May 09, 2012 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Marching Thru Georgia
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Re: Brigade Combat Tutorial

Post by Marching Thru Georgia »

You make the erroneous assumption that if the game knows two units are in sight of each other all the AI commanders do. Anyone who has spent any time at all playing from the saddle and observing how the AI reacts to visible cues knows this is false. It is possible that units within the AI's command radius 'tell' him what they see, but the AI commanders primary information input is what they can see from the saddle.
I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.
Garnier
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Re: Brigade Combat Tutorial

Post by Garnier »

I don't actually know what data the AI is given, but if I were a betting man I would bet money that the AI does NOT in any way analyze rendered graphics to determine what units are where, which implies that T-mode has no meaning for the AI, and that changing the sprites in the game would have no effect on the AI.

Changing the sprites would clearly affect what a human player using HITS would see.

Thus, what the AI commanders can be aware of is independent of what the player can physically see in the game's graphics.




My last statement above is a simple deduction; it must be true if the first two parts are true.

The first part would require Norb to verify, although as I said, I am very confident that it is true.

The second part I think is obvious, if anyone disagrees, please say so.

You make the erroneous assumption that if the game knows two units are in sight of each other all the AI commanders do.
I did not ever say or imply that I thought that.
Last edited by Garnier on Wed May 09, 2012 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Play Scourge of War Multiplayer! www.sowmp.com
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Jack ONeill
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Re: Brigade Combat Tutorial

Post by Jack ONeill »

All,

We seem to have lost our new Brother Laiz in all this.

Laiz,

So, as I see it, you were ordered to move to such and such a position. Your fellow commanders, (Meridith and Hall), received different orders and excecuted them. You followed your orders and fought ferociously to hold your position, being carefully concerned about your men's well-being and dealing with increasingly vulnerable flanks. Casualties started to mount and you started to wonder why there is no support coming. Your men start to give way and you cannot blame them. You were about to order a total withdrawl when...

Congratulations! 2 things happened... 1) You fought a savage battle against heavy odds and mostly survived. That in and of itself is a Victory.
2) You've just graduated into the ranks of SOW Generals.

Yes, you are annoyed about the support you didn't get. Suck it up, feed your men, water the horses, clean your sword, load your pistol, take a big drink of something strong, replenish the ammunition and get ready to go back in. (BTW, the Brigade Tutorial is a favorite of many of us. I'll play it just for fun, occasionally.)

It does get better, we promise. (How many copies of this has Norb/Team sold?) That'll tell you something right there.

Jack "very long winded these days" O'Neill B)
American by birth, Californian by geography, Southerner by the Grace of God.

"Molon Labe"
KG_Soldier
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Re: Brigade Combat Tutorial

Post by KG_Soldier »

On the ai:

We played a whole campaign against the ai seems like forever ago.

Human players versus the ai isn't much of a challenge, unless you play hits, and then everything is a challenge. But even then, playing against human players using hits is much harder than playing the ai using hits.

It also depends on what size force you're commanding. But my opinion is that in relatively small battles, the ai doesn't appear very skilled. In big battles, where you command a large division or corps, the ai seems much better.

I've played several hits games versus the ai in the last week (I know, I know, very unusual for me to play single player, but I had Achilles tendon surgery, so lots of time on my hands).

In bigger battles playing hits, you're forced to let the ai control your brigade commanders, which to me is a big old drag. I guess having played several thousand MP games (literally) has caused in me a need to manage all of my regiments personally (if you let the ai control your brigades in the GCM, you will not have a division at the end of the battle). So I'm a little biased against the ai.

It's really like two different games. If you like watching the battle and giving orders from the division or corps level, hits is for you (MP or single player). If you prefer micromanaging your regiments and batteries, MP in the GCM is for you.

No doubt, the ai in this game is far superior to most other games' ai, but it's never going to better than a human opponent.
LaissezFaire
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Re: Brigade Combat Tutorial

Post by LaissezFaire »

First off, I was unable to complete a game last night after taking care of some other, more important things. I've gotten past the opening battle across the stream but have yet to move up the road to join Hall and Meredith. I should have screenshots tonight.
Congratulations! 2 things happened... 1) You fought a savage battle against heavy odds and mostly survived. That in and of itself is a Victory.
2) You've just graduated into the ranks of SOW Generals.
Isn't the point of that part of the battle to defend a point chosen by the game? That's what I was doing (or trying to do).

No offense intended, but it sounds like rather than accepting that the game makes the ostensible objective difficult or impossible, you're moving the goal posts so that "surviving" is in itself a victory. I could maybe understand that if this was an actual battle, but this is a video game with a very clear-cut scenario of defending a position against a pretty straightforward enemy attack. Again, I wouldn't mind if this game was simply difficult, but my complaint stems from the friendly AI cutting me off at the knees (something that seems to be happening with other people too).
Yes, you are annoyed about the support you didn't get. Suck it up, feed your men, water the horses, clean your sword, load your pistol, take a big drink of something strong, replenish the ammunition and get ready to go back in. (BTW, the Brigade Tutorial is a favorite of many of us. I'll play it just for fun, occasionally.)
I'm not really into role-playing and I will replay the scenario. I'll also give the division and corps tutorials a try since it sounds like the AI is only really terrible at the brigade level.

What exactly is "fun" about the brigade tutorial? I'm just curious, because whether or not people are defending the AI, even those defending it seem to be saying that the AI is unpredictable and frustrating. Add that on top of a forced double quick march to avoid getting cut off from your friendly units, I'm not exactly seeing the appeal.

Of course, different strokes for different folks.
It does get better, we promise. (How many copies of this has Norb/Team sold?) That'll tell you something right there.
I haven't played all the tutorials, much less the whole game, so I'm not qualified to judge the game yet. I do know that a lot of people have heaped praise on to the game for how it looks, for being a more realistic battle simulation than the arcade-y Total War games, and for the amount of historical detail involved. On all those counts, I agree, and it does invoke very favorable comparisons to Sid Meier's Gettysburg!, one of my favorite games of all time.

Of course, given that SOWGB is a very good game in a rare genre (U.S. Civil War real-time strategy/battle simulation), it really isn't that shocking that it has sold very well. I know of several studios that make much less graphically appealing games with much more bugs that sell well (and with higher prices than SOWGB) because they cater to Napoleonic wargaming fans who are into the whole hex-diagram battlefields thing. Honestly, if you want more historical and realistic alternatives to games like those in the Total War series, there aren't a huge ton of options available.

Again, I'm not trying to denigrate Norb/Team or SOWGB, and the plethora of good reviews for the game out there speak for themselves. (Which is why I find the problems I'm having with the AI so frustrating.) But I'd like to judge SOWGB subjectively, not purely on the number of copies sold, since one possible explanation is that gamers who want alternatives to games like Total War simply don't have many more games to go with -- and, when it comes to the Civil War specifically, even less.
In bigger battles playing hits, you're forced to let the ai control your brigade commanders, which to me is a big old drag. I guess having played several thousand MP games (literally) has caused in me a need to manage all of my regiments personally (if you let the ai control your brigades in the GCM, you will not have a division at the end of the battle). So I'm a little biased against the ai.

It's really like two different games. If you like watching the battle and giving orders from the division or corps level, hits is for you (MP or single player). If you prefer micromanaging your regiments and batteries, MP in the GCM is for you.
I'm not married to micro-management (although I have developed a tendency for it). I wouldn't mind letting the friendly AI control my units, but if I won't "have a division at the end of the battle," that is very worrying. But it seems you're saying that AI control is really only an issue in multiplayer games?

I'm also not crazy about HITS, although I haven't tried it yet. I like striking a balance between realism and reenactment. To me, the FOW is a big enough handicap (or should be); an overhead view is really only unfair if it's all-seeing, and if FOW is in effect, then you shouldn't be all-seeing, regardless of whether your camera has a bird's eye view or is the general's POV.

How many brigade-level scenarios are there in the SOWGB campaign? If there are only some division/corps/army scenarios, then I would feel like I wasn't getting the complete experience because the brigade-level scenarios would be unappealing.

I'm not opposed to multiplayer but I also like the idea of firing up a game after a long day and spending several hours playing a battle that I can save, leave and resume at my convenience. It is rare that I can ever sit still in one place long enough, much less on my laptop, to play out a multiplayer game in real time.

Are there any mods where you are not limited to only "taking command" of units that are under your control? This tutorial would be much easier if I could simply take control of Meredith and Hall (picking those units specifically, not necessarily taking over Wadsworth's whole command).
KG_Soldier
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Re: Brigade Combat Tutorial

Post by KG_Soldier »

In bigger battles playing hits, you're forced to let the ai control your brigade commanders, which to me is a big old drag. I guess having played several thousand MP games (literally) has caused in me a need to manage all of my regiments personally (if you let the ai control your brigades in the GCM, you will not have a division at the end of the battle). So I'm a little biased against the ai.

It's really like two different games. If you like watching the battle and giving orders from the division or corps level, hits is for you (MP or single player). If you prefer micromanaging your regiments and batteries, MP in the GCM is for you.
I'm not married to micro-management (although I have developed a tendency for it). I wouldn't mind letting the friendly AI control my units, but if I won't "have a division at the end of the battle," that is very worrying. But it seems you're saying that AI control is really only an issue in multiplayer games?

I'm also not crazy about HITS, although I haven't tried it yet. I like striking a balance between realism and reenactment. To me, the FOW is a big enough handicap (or should be); an overhead view is really only unfair if it's all-seeing, and if FOW is in effect, then you shouldn't be all-seeing, regardless of whether your camera has a bird's eye view or is the general's POV.

I'm not opposed to multiplayer but I also like the idea of firing up a game after a long day and spending several hours playing a battle that I can save, leave and resume at my convenience. It is rare that I can ever sit still in one place long enough, much less on my laptop, to play out a multiplayer game in real time.
In the GCM, you generally command a division of 3,000 to 4,000 men with a couple of batteries of artillery. We play with sight restricted to between 125 to 200 yards (depending on who is hosting), so me saying you have to micromanage your troops and not let the ai control your brigades is a little misleading. Not really micromanage, but if you rely on the ai brigade commanders, a human controlled brigade will ravage an ai controlled brigade almost every time.

Our games last 90 minutes, but of course, due to lag, sometimes they last longer than that. But we sometimes have more than 20 players in a battle and that's quite a magnificent thing to participate in: http://www.sowmp.com/gcm/battles/battle/9399

Here's the website if you're interested: http://www.sowmp.com/gcm/
LaissezFaire
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Re: Brigade Combat Tutorial

Post by LaissezFaire »

Like I said above, my schedule is pretty busy and I am often not free nights or weekends to play games, especially for very long times. I much prefer games where I can save, quit and resume the game according to my convenience.

If I do decide to get the game, however, I will certainly consider applying to join your group.
Damned Black Hat
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Re: Brigade Combat Tutorial

Post by Damned Black Hat »

Like I said above, my schedule is pretty busy and I am often not free nights or weekends to play games, especially for very long times. I much prefer games where I can save, quit and resume the game according to my convenience.

If I do decide to get the game, however, I will certainly consider applying to join your group.
Apply? No such thing. If you sign up and have your game and the GCM mods up to date, you can play!
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