Brigade Combat Tutorial

[LaissezFaire]

Trying out the demo to see if I want to buy the game or not.

I beat the two Confederate brigades when they try to cross the river. No problem there.

I have to wait for the 46th Pennsylvania to arrive so I have all of my brigades. I have tried to cross the bridge and join up with the Iron Brigade ahead of time, but usually this results in at least the 46th Pennsylvania being "left behind" on the road -- and leaving men behind is something frowned upon in military circles.

Of course, if I set the 46th Penn on the double quick, they catch up with the rest of my regiments -- but of course they're exhausted by the time we join up with Meredith's brigade.

Anyway, even when I do manage to get my brigade lined up with Hall's battery and Meredith's Iron Brigade, Wadsworth (or whomever the Corps commander is) decides to move Meredith away from the Confederates, leaving both Hall's battery and the Union supply wagon vulnerable to a Confederate flank from the south. Just as the Confederates were bearing down on me from two directions, Meredith decided to form Column... behind me.

I actually held my ground for a decent amount of time, but there were just too many Rebs and the lines were too disorganized... I resigned the battle in frustration.

I have heard nothing but good things about this game, so I cannot believe that the AI is this bad. I couldn't believe it myself! I may take screenshots when I give it another shot, but considering it takes at least an hour to play the tutorial and make it that far, it'll have to wait until tomorrow.

If it happens again, I'll post screenshots in this thread.

[Little Powell]

Yeah, the brigade tutorial is tough. It's a good indication of what you are in store for in later scenarios..

I suggest giving it another go, and chances are the AI will act differently, as they never do the same thing twice. I have never heard anyone call the AI bad, so it was probably a fluke for them to move into column like that. Old Meredith was a solid commander, but mostly a politician so his ratings are pretty low in the game. A low rated commander will often do things that you don't want them to, and it may indeed be frustrating at times.

Again, I suggest giving it another go, and believe me (not being biased) the AI is far from bad in this game.

[redcoat]

i do concur with little powells comments.
i played that tutorial 7 times before i got something close to a win,partly due to my ineptitude but also due to the ai doing something radicaly dirrerent every time i played it!

i even ended up with my units in a circle making a last stand during one try,i survived and beat the enemy off but ended up with about a third of my units intact and in no condition to fight.one of the best fights ive had in a pc game and this was a tutorial!

i implore you to persevere with the game,there are no others out there that come anywhere close to the tactical sophistication the ai displays.its well worth the time and effort.cheers

[Saddletank]

Anyway, even when I do manage to get my brigade lined up with Hall's battery and Meredith's Iron Brigade, Wadsworth (or whomever the Corps commander is) decides to move Meredith away from the Confederates, leaving both Hall's battery and the Union supply wagon vulnerable to a Confederate flank from the south. Just as the Confederates were bearing down on me from two directions, Meredith decided to form Column... behind me.

This to me sounds very realistic and exactly the kinds of things real commanders did. People are brought up far too much on a diet of Hollywood movies where everyone is a hero and tactical genius.

People don't read enough reputable history books to understand that people screwed up all the time in battle and made bad and stupid decisions. Gettysburg was a battle full of bad grand tactical decisions, mostly from the Rebel side and some bad low-level tactical ones from the Union side.

The AI sounds about right in what you describe.

You need to try and stop thinking in terms of the AI being a genius and try to think of it as just being realistic. If it does something stupid, try to beat the situation.

[Marching Thru Georgia]

Saddletank wrote:

...people screwed up all the time in battle and made bad and stupid decisions.

Hey! I resemble that remark.

[LaissezFaire]

I have to say I cannot think of any situation where it would be appropriate to allow artillery to be exposed on its own without any support against advancing infantry where it could be flanked and the guns captured. I also don't know why it would be ideal in any sense to allow your supply unit to come under fire. At least an artillery unit can defend itself.

Screenshots would be helpful here, but basically I get orders to bring up my brigade to the left of Hall's battery with Meredith's Iron Brigade to the right. The Confederates attack from my left (where I just came from) as well as in front. Logically, I should adjust my line so as not to be flanked on my far left, but there really is no reason for Meredith's Iron Brigade to move. They are in a prime position to hold their ground and take the frontal Confederate attack. They're also defending the right flank of the artillery.

What happened, instead, was just as the frontal attack began, Meredith moved south, opening the door for the Rebels to advance unimpeded on Hall's artillery and to flank my right. Moreover, he decided to move in Column -- a formation not exactly good for a combat situation. I had my forces fall back and to the right so as not to be totally flanked on my right side, but in so doing had to give up Hall's battery as a lost cause. Also, by moving to take the frontal assault, I exposed myself to the Rebels attacking to my left, but thankfully I was able to adopt a brigade-level L-shaped formation.

In the end, Meredith moved further behind me, and it was only until after the combat started that the Iron Brigade came up to support my left flank -- and only with some of the regiments actually engaging the Rebels. I more or less fought most of the battle on my own, and as I said, I was outnumbered and when my units started routing I gave up.

The bottom line is that there was zero reason to give up our position right before the battle started, much less in the manner or at the time the AI chose to do it.

I realize that Meredith wasn't a genius commander and that the AI doesn't act as if it's all-knowing. But presumably the AI-controlled commanders see the exact same things mine does, what with fog of war and all. And even assuming imperfect information, isn't the default reaction to sit pretty, with artillery support and your flanks covered -- NOT to suddenly change into Column formation right before an attack, and move to where the danger is far less, giving up your guns and your supplies without a fight?

There is a lot of difference, I feel, between Francis Barlow exposing a salient on Barlow's Knoll during the Battle of Gettysburg, for example, and straight-up abandoning your artillery, your supply wagon and a well-supported position and then moving in a risky formation to a position with no explicable purpose.

I will definitely replay the scenario tonight and will post screenshots. Hopefully the AI will behave a little better.

[Marching Thru Georgia]

LaissezFaire wrote:

But presumably the AI-controlled commanders see the exact same things mine does, what with fog of war and all. And even assuming imperfect information, isn't the default reaction to sit pretty, with artillery support and your flanks covered -- NOT to suddenly change into Column formation right before an attack, and move to where the danger is far less, giving up your guns and your supplies without a fight?

How do you know Meredith wasn't ordered to move somewhere else? How do you know that his men were not at their limit and couldn't stand another attack? The AI only knows what it can see from the saddle. It doesn't have a blimp to observe from as do you. What appears to be a completely ridiculous strategy from your vantage point may look completely reasonable at ground level. When you are ready, change the difficulty level to Historic. Then you will be on the same level as the AI. Matters won't be quite so obvious.

[Garnier]

The AI only knows what it can see from the saddle.

Could you elaborate what this means?

I would expect the AI to see everything the player can see. In other words, units that are behind fog of war cannot be seen, but all units that are revealed can be seen.

Is this not true?

[LaissezFaire]

I don't know if I've been clear...

When Meredith moved away from the oncoming Confed assault, the Confederates were not miles away or even several hundred yards away. The attack was imminent and you did not even need to be sitting in a saddle to see the frontal assault of at least an entire brigade coming directly at Meredith.

Now, whether Wadsworth or Meredith ordered the move is irrelevant. The point is that the AI made a very stupid decision at a very critical moment and while I understand that I am not Sun Tzu that doesn't mean the AI is innocent in this case. If I had screenshots to bolster my case, I don't think you could really make the case of "Oh, you don't know, the AI thought something else was going on, you can't expect every general to be Robert E. Lee..."

Quite honestly, given the circumstances, when your enemy is directly in front of you and about to attack you, you don't change into marching formation, abandon your guns and your supporting units and take up a totally groundless position several yards away. You don't need to be up on the writings of von Clausewitz to know that's a bad idea.

I'm not saying I'm giving up on the game or that the game isn't impressive in many areas. But if the AI is going to be so bad that it's going to hamstring something as basic as withstanding a direct attack next to impossible, that's something I have to take into consideration before making a purchase.

[Saddletank]

When Meredith moved away from the oncoming Confed assault, the Confederates were not miles away or even several hundred yards away. The attack was imminent and you did not even need to be sitting in a saddle to see the frontal assault of at least an entire brigade coming directly at Meredith.

With a HITS view (which is what the AI has) you can be within 100 yards of a brigade and not see it. I have had this happen to me in more than one game. The ground has many pockets and depressions in it, especially on roads which are often sunken between earth banks.

Play the game at eye level and you will see and experience what the AI does.

Also, in reply to your earlier post, I didn't say moves were appropriate, I said they were realistic, and that military commanders did seemingly stupid things because the fog of war prevented them seing enemy who were close by. They couldn't float in a helicopter a couple of hundred feet above the battle and direct their men by telephone. Nor can the AI.