Blind AI in Sandbox?

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Cardboard Box
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Blind AI in Sandbox?

Post by Cardboard Box »

Hello everyone, I've been playing a lot of Sandbox games recently, after finally beating all the main scenarios, and have run into some frustrating issues with the AI. Namely, it appears at times to be blind and oblivious to enemy forces! I like to play mostly Corps v. Corps games, using all the game types, from Attack to Line of Sight to Hunt Them Down. I typically play with 1 or 2 OBJs, to give the AI something to target. I typically play as a Division Commander subordinate to the AI, though recently I've dabbled in being just a lowly brigade commander. The main issue I'm starting to notice though, is that the AI on both sides seems to be blind! What I mean by this is if a division, friendly or enemy, is marching along a road to get to the location the Corps commander has ordered them to go, they seem to absolutely ignore any enemy forces in the vicinity! One of my games today had my division marching along a road (me being a brigade commander in the rear of the column) towards an OBJ. The lead unit in the column, an infantry regiment, started to spot enemy units in the distance maybe 500 to 600 yards away, coming down the same road we were on, to the same objective. What should happen is that both divisions would halt in their march, start to shake out into brigade battle lines while still out of range, and then start advancing towards the enemy.

What instead happened, and seems to happen every time I run into this situation, is that both sides continued down the same road, towards the same objective, without even a pause. I thought maybe the issue might lie with the officers of the units, perhaps they could not see the enemy and thus did not "know" about them. But their target lists showed the same enemy units as the lead regiment, for both the brigade and division commander. Clearly they could see the enemy column, but it's as if they were just completely ignoring the enemy! Both columns continued marching closer and close in plain view of each other, until the lead regiments were about 150 yards from each other. At this point they both went into line and started firing at each other. With the lead regiments engaged, I expected a response from the rest of the division, but again they seemed to ignore what was going on right in front of them! The second regiment in the column kept marching down the road, right through the first regiment, until it too realized the enemy was right in front of them, finally shaking into its own line formation and firing. This continued until the whole lead brigade was stacked right in front of each other in the middle of the road. At this point officers started galloping around and artillery started to go into place in the rear, and my fellow brigadiers started pulling their troops of the side of the road and organizing into battle lines. The division commander fired off couriers, and I got orders to go into line on the left flank of the lead brigade (which was still stacked 5 regiments deep in the middle of the road), while the other brigades were deployed to the right.

Clearly the AI knows how to handle a division, deploying its brigades into a strong battle line to meet the enemy. It just does it far too late! It seems when a unit is in "march mode", following orders to deploy its troops to a certain location, the AI shuts off and doesn't recognize a threat until it's within firing distance. At that point it is far too late. This isn't as if I turned the corner on a forest trail and ran into the enemy, this is on the Kansas map with its long sight lines.

I don't want to come off like I'm trashing the game, coding AI isn't something I could do in any form, and this is by far the best Civil War game out there. In combat the AI can whoop butt. But this is just something that frustrates me and makes Sandbox play less enjoyable. Units should spot the enemy, analyze the strength of the force, and deploy appropriately. Instead units ignore each other until they're shooting. Completely sucks away the immersion.

I am curious if there is anything I can do to prevent this. I have my aicount set to 65 in my sowgb.ini. I'm on Normal difficulty, so it isn't an issue of couriers (the brigade's regiments move instantly when their officers finally react). I've turned off all mods and it still happens. I've tried all the different game modes in Sandbox, even Line of Sight, and it still happens. It happens with all command styles, from Frozen to Bold. The AI just seems to completely ignore any enemy forces moving along roads until the lead units are engaged. It just seems terribly unrealistic that two forces would road march till they're 200 yards away from each other before deploying.

Some pictures to illustrate:
SPOILER: SHOW
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RebBugler
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Re: Blind AI in Sandbox?

Post by RebBugler »

Thanks for the report. I'm sure Norb will take notice, you presented this well without bashing the game. We are aware of some of you're concerns about open play, which in essence is the AI doing it all. In scenario design we can control and direct many of the AI's less than stellar facets, still, nothing can designed perfectly, and we must depend on the AI for all combat inter-phases.

As far as your statement about the AI being blind I've gotta say no way. In scenario designing we must TC and script the AI constantly so it won't react to enemies at great distances, so we can steer it to objectives or to emulate historical movements. Still, you're obviously seeing problems. I think there is some anomaly happening in open play when units are road marching and experiencing tunnel vision. I've seen it but very infrequently, but, I don't deal with or entertain myself with open play. In designing scenarios, I won't let it happen, making the AI smarter if you will.

We're proud of the AI we have with SOW, there's not another game out there than can come close to it's immersion factor. But it's not perfect, and we're constantly working on improvements, striving to get as close to that perfection bar as possible. Stick around, we may nail down your concerns sooner than you think.

We appreciate your civil feedback. :)
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Cardboard Box
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Re: Blind AI in Sandbox?

Post by Cardboard Box »

Yes, let me qualify my "AI is Blind" statement by saying that I've had NO issues with AI deployments, movements, or combat in either the scenarios or in a Sandbox, open field fight after the initial engagement. This has only been an issue for me when both forces are using the roads and marching to a location - they do seem to get "tunnel vision" as you put it, and ignore each other.

Edit: I can also provide a savegame of a Union brigade 300 yards from a Rebel column, completely ignoring them, if it is needed.
Last edited by Cardboard Box on Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Saddletank
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Re: Blind AI in Sandbox?

Post by Saddletank »

Try turning the objectives off and let the AI set it's own goals. We find in MP games that a 'hunt them down' corps vs corps game can give extremely realistic battles, particularly if we team up to command the brigades of one division while leaving our other divisions to the AI.

Your aicount at 65 is too high as this makes the AI suicidally aggressive which might be what you are seeing. I suggest setting it down to arouund 55.

Remember also that the AI calculates what it can see from ground level. It does not have an eye-in-the-sky elevated camera position like you have and if you fix your camera view down at 2m above ground you will discover that you can see much less. This too might explain part of the AI's behaviour.
Last edited by Saddletank on Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Marching Thru Georgia
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Re: Blind AI in Sandbox?

Post by Marching Thru Georgia »

Cardboard Box wrote:
The AI just seems to completely ignore any enemy forces moving along roads until the lead units are engaged. It just seems terribly unrealistic that two forces would road march till they're 200 yards away from each other before deploying.
This problem has been brought up before. Although I must say that the 1.4 patch has improved things significantly. What I usually observe is that one or two regiments will engage the enemy column, forcing them to deploy. This buys the rest of the column time. The AI brigade commander will then order the rest of his men to fall back 1 or 2 hundred yards and deploy. The other brigades following in column will move up and begin to deploy beside the first. This seems very realistic and I enjoy watching it, if I have the time. :) The only thing that is not realistic is that the deployment doesn't begin until the enemy is within range. It should really begin several hundred yards back as you mention. Ideally, one regiment would move up to firing range in skirmish formation to force the enemy to halt while the rest of the brigade deploys.

In previous versions, the entire column would move up to firing range before trying to deploy. That made for a real mess. Version 1.4 is a very nice improvement.
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Re: Blind AI in Sandbox?

Post by Baldwin »

I can confirm that sometimes the situation Cardboard stated does occur. Just in a recent game we played vs alongside AI in a corps vs corps game. One AI division (Doubleday) was heading in the direction of a battle already occurring, but proceeded to his ordered destination rather than help out the rest of his corps and engage the LOS enemies. Maybe it's because he's a cautious commander. I've only seen this a handful of times so it could be rare.
Cardboard Box
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Re: Blind AI in Sandbox?

Post by Cardboard Box »

Hi, just bringing this thread up again, I'm still noticing these issues in sandbox play with the new path + expansion, and I was wondering if this was looked at? I think there are issues tied to the roadmarch order, as units (and commanders) stationary or moving cross country seem to respond very well to the enemy, while those on roads just plain don't. Just played a sandbox as an Army commander, one of my corps was in position when the enemy came trudging down the road. Upon sighting a brigade worth of the enemy or so, my corps and division commanders jumped into action, ordering all sorts of brigades up on line to engage, without any prompting by me (still impresses me how the AI can do that so well). The enemy on the other hand just kept coming straight at my troops up the road, until they were eventually piled 6 or 7 regiments deep. It's really jarring to see it happen and turns everything into a melee fest as units try to move through each other.
Last edited by Cardboard Box on Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RebBugler
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Re: Blind AI in Sandbox?

Post by RebBugler »

Hi, just bringing this thread up again, I'm still noticing these issues in sandbox play with the new path + expansion, and I was wondering if this was looked at? I think there are issues tied to the roadmarch order, as units (and commanders) stationary or moving cross country seem to respond very well to the enemy, while those on roads just plain don't. Just played a sandbox as an Army commander, one of my corps was in position when the enemy came trudging down the road. Upon sighting a brigade worth of the enemy or so, my corps and division commanders jumped into action, ordering all sorts of brigades up on line to engage, without any prompting by me (still impresses me how the AI can do that so well). The enemy on the other hand just kept coming straight at my troops up the road, until they were eventually piled 6 or 7 regiments deep. It's really jarring to see it happen and turns everything into a melee fest as units try to move through each other.
I think one of our fixes broke this aspect of sandbox causing this. The fix involved allowing units to proceed via a straight line path to the road when given Roadmarch, before, they went to their commander first and then followed the commander to their road march position. A very good fix I might add. So now, the commander most likely won't lead the column as he would before the fix. If he isn't leading the column, he doesn't see the threat, so units just plow ahead until he does.

Anyway, get a save and post it here. Maybe Norb can eliminate this ugly without messing with the fix.
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Cardboard Box
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Re: Blind AI in Sandbox?

Post by Cardboard Box »

One thing I've noticed that it might be related to: flanking regiments. When brigade commanders are in a fight, almost every time they'll order one or two units to the very flanks of the enemy they are engaged with. A lot of times, these regiments will have to take a circuitous route to get there, because other friendly regiments are in the way. When that happens, their "regiment avoidance" pathing kicks in, and their route around the unit is drawn in game using the same symbols you see with road marching units. In addition, the "Use Roads" icon is lit up on the toolbar (you can also see this when you order units to go through each other, they path around them using the same logic). One thing I notice is that when this happens, the flanking unit tends to "ignore" enemy units. This is usually a good thing, as you don't want your units stopping before they get that good flanking position. BUT, when another enemy unit moves up to occupy the same place your flanking unit is going, the flanking unit will be completely oblivious and walk straight into melee with the enemy. This doesn't happen all the time, but it is quite frustrating when it does. It's as if the regiment gets "tunnel vision" and ignores everything but getting to its destination. I don't know if the code is the same in both cases, but as the road march symbols and icons both light up, I'm thinking they are. Might be the place to look deeper at. I'll get some saves up illustrating both cases, if I can.
Last edited by Cardboard Box on Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blind AI in Sandbox?

Post by Blaugrana »

IIRC, the command to use roads in the keyboards file is "forcepath". Perhaps this is also used in the case you describe above, CB. And, perhaps it leads to the enemy being ignored.

I've noticed the same thing very occasionally. I have also noticed that the AI is very keen to keep to roads, sometimes marching away from a fight.
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