Scourge of War Boards

NSD

Any chance of doing a Union/Southern retreat scenario from GB?

Interested, Hoistingman4

I guess that would be the Battle of Harrisburg or Baltimore. The Confederate retreat The Battle of Williamsport/Hagerstown?

Greg

I imagine the Confederate retreat scenario would have the Rebel calvary holding off the Union calvary for as long as possible.

The second Confederate retreat scenario would be if the Union calvary was able to drive off the defensive screens there would be a second Antietam scenario where the Army of Norther Virginia would have to hold off the Union for two days with its back to the flooding Potomac.

If the Confederates had won at Gettysburg I have no idea what they would have done next. They really did not have any siege artillery with them to siege a large city like Washington or Baltimore. I imagine the string of defeats from Fredricksburg, Chancellorsville and Gettysburg would have been the trifecta for the Southern cause. The political results from this would have caused either the Union to sue for peace or for a European power to recognize the Confederacy. I doubt that the Southern supply system could have sustained fighting north of the Potomac for very long. The other possibility is that Lee would have maintained a force large enough to threaten DC while sending a as many men as he could spare to the Western theatre to check Grant's progress down the Mississippi.

I don't know enough about the Civil War in detail as to whom's plans were what and what they were going to do. I do know if I was Lee and won GB, I'd lay waste to the Norths' economy (RR) while it seem to be a conveinent time to do so. Forgo capturing any big cities. I'd have to wonder if Lee had the stomach for a job like Shermans'. A lot would depend how the Union would have retreated from Gettysburg. A what if?

Yep, Lee routes the Yankees at Gburg, then what?...the eternal 'what if'!

FWIW, here's my take. The Yankees were being re-enforced as the battle progressed, further the routed units at some point would of regrouped and even minus most of their artillery combined with fresh units arriving would present a formidable harassment presence if nothing else impeding Lee's advance on Washington. The most likely outcome would of been a Northern counter attack somewhere between Gburg and Washington. Then there was also the large Northern cavalry presence in the area. On top of al this Washington itself was heavily fortified.

Assuming Lee had similar heavy casualties and if he wasn't able to capture enough supplies, a march on Washington would of eventually destroyed his Army in detail.

And if that wasn't enough, while Lee was marching toward Washington, the large Northen forces in the occupied South including Grant at Vburg could of regrouped and marched on the then relatively defenseless Richmond 'forcing' Lee to head back with the entire Northern Army on his tail. The fall of Richmond while Lee's Army was above the Mason-Dixon line would of ended the war right then and there. He literally would of been surrounded by Northern forces.
Would of been one big chess game.

IMO, if Lee had succeeded in routing the Yankees at Gburg, the best scenario would of been to declare victory, hope the victory would initiate peace talks, the CSA would be recognized finally by England and head back to Virginia to concentrate on Grant's forces at Vburg.

The other big 'what if' assuming the CSA won its independance, how would this country look today?
-Would another future war break out over the Western territories or other unresolved issues?

-Would the CSA set its sights on Mexico?

-Would the two countries eventually combine like East/West Germany or be perpetually at each others throats like North/South Korea?

-How would the CSA held Mississippi River affect Northern commerce and trade for the big Northern cities like Chicago? St.Louis, etc.? Best outcome a toll for Northern barges to pass on to the Gulf, worse outcome a Southern blockade of the Mississippi River to Northern Commerce. Maybe this would be pre-negotiated in the peace treaty?

-How would the CSA handle the slavery issue as it would most likely be a pre-condition for English recognition for the new country? Sooner or later, the South would have to officially give up the institution of slavery. Then what would the South do with its millions of slaves? Free them with no, full or partial rights? Transport them to Africa? Deport them into Mexico, the North or elsewhere?

If Lee had only listened to Longstreet, we might be living in a very different world today.

I think the slavery issue would have worked itself out in an economic sense. There were leaders in the South, (Lee among them) who thought that the slaves should be freed so they could supply Southern soldiers for the cause. The South was becoming a changed place by 1863 in the sense that it was becoming more industrialized. The centers of this were Atlanta, Charleston and Richmond. Had a peace been worked out in 1863 these three cities would have survived intact and would have continue to grow economically. The power and influence of the slaveholding class would have shrunk and the plantation system would have started its long decline.

The other thing to remember is that Jefferson Davis was barely able to hold the southern states together during a wartime situation. He constantly fought with the governors to look beyond their internal troubles in order to contribute more to the national cause. If the South had won then the Southern states would not have formed a strong central government--that would have been the antithesis of their "Second Revolution". Indeed, once the path of secession had been established what would keep the southern states from further splintering over a myriad of issues? Some states would have found their interests to be more closely tied to the North after a few years.
Some states would have found tariffs and trade agreements to be the splitting wedge. Some would have favored expansion to Mexico and further south while others would see that their own interest would not benefit from that expansion. In short, the very issues that split the Union would have continued within the Confederacy.

Don't stop! What was Longstreets' plan? :huh:

Nicely thought out, however, the focus on Southern problems mirrored with what the Union was facing itself, aside from the slavery issue and may have wanted to sue for peace. Certainly if there was mass losses of Union troops killed/wounded/desertions in a GB retreat the Norths' resolve would have been questioned, a morale low for those states. Not saying they would have given up the fight, but they would realize that their task was going to be all that much more monumental.

My post was assuming a Northern cessation of hostilities if they had lost Gettysburg. There was a groundswell of support for McClellan as a presidential candidate. The Democrats in the North were becoming a large force and were getting elected to state legislatures. Losing Gettysburg would have put them in control in several northern states (Indiana elected a Democratic legislature in 1862). Since it was the states that raised the troops they would have stopped supplying new units. A national draft would have been more violently opposed. I see the national will to fight evaporating if the AOP could not win Gettysburg. Lee was critisized for gambling his army at Gettysburg but I believed that he saw the North winning a war of attrition if it continued that way. I wonder what Lee's second plan would have been had he won--not much has been discussed about that situation. Had he started cutting a swath through Pennsylvania (which was against his character) then he possibly could have energized the North to renew the conflict. I think Lee wanted one battle to decide the war--after that he would let the politicians decide the details.

I can't disagree with your reasoning. Would love to know what Lee was thinking when he was planning this campaign. One thing is playing a game, another thing is understanding what it was all about, the insight pro/con at that time in our history. Thankyou for your view(s) it was very helpful. Hoistingman4