Longstreet vs. Lee

[estabu2]

Haha, I didn't know we were a no hi-jacking thread now!!!

[Jim]

IMO, Ewell's troops were quite disorganized by the series of attacks needed to push the Union troops back through town and up onto the hills. Even with Jackson driving, it would have taken some time to get the lines reformed for a new attack.

A lesser known fact is that Williams division had approached town on the Hanover Road and was deployed just behind Wolf Hill. It was perfectly positioned to crush the flank of any attack on Culp's Hill. There is some debate as to whether Early and/or Ewell knew that Williams was there. If they did, it would explain why they showed little interest in trying an attack on the evening of July 1.

-Jim

[dale]

Hancock the Superb wrote:

My line about Jackson not being the best general is really because he only faced terrrible opponents. A Grant would very likely not care about some oddball flanking him, he would push right forward and massacre the other portion of Lee's army.

In addition, at Fredericksburg, Jackson didn't tell AP Hill to close the gap in his lines, allowing for some 2 thousand extra casualties.

I don't believe that Jackson would have influenced a win for Lee at Gettysburg. My best guess is that he might do better on day one, overrun Cemetary Hill, but at a frightful cost (Union artillery). Then, Meade would retire to Pipe Creek and Lee would have no options but to either attack, or retreat. Either way, a Union victory happens.

Jackson's old Corps was the one that was driving the Union XI Corps through the streets of Gettysburg. Jackson would not have hesitated to keep driving, just like at Chancellorsville. Once Jackson smelled panic he used it, he knew when the enemy was about to be broken. Taking that part of Cemetary Hill would have negated the whole Union defensive position. Lee would be able to concentrate at Gettysburg, no wide flanking maneuvers needed, no Pickett's charge, no marching across a mile of open terrain under cannon fire. Two Union Corps, the first and the eleventh would have been destroyed. The other Union corps would have arrived through the next 12 to 20 hours in a piecemeal fashion. If Meade stays at Gettysburg in order to try to save a position and turn the first day's losses around, then he faces an opponent who has the high ground. If Meade retreats he will have suffered a major defeat. Politics will come into play and Meade may well be canned. The Union AOP is not united, there are factions splitting up into different general's camps. If Meade retreats from Gettysburg after July 1 he unleashes unimagined political chaos on the Northern side. Lee may not have to fight another battle.

[estabu2]

If the Rebs would have taken Cemetary Hill, Meade already had a plan to fall back to Pipe Line Creek or whatever that place was called. If he doesn't hold the high ground after the first day, Gettysburg "the battle" does not happen.

[norb]

That was the impression I got from Killer Angels, and I know I am very far behind the knowledge on this board. But it seemed that so much would have been different had cemetary hill been taken and it seemed that if Lee had a commander on that first day that had a pair, it would have been. And as Dale said above, it would have been an entirely different fight if they had the high ground.

[Little Powell]

When we start taking "what if's", I'm always reminded of Newt Gingrich's Gettyburg book.

SPOILER: SHOW

Lee actually listens to Longstreet.. He sends Longstreet around Meade's left to occupy a town to the South (Taneytown I think it was), cutting off the Union supply line and the route back to Washington. At the same time, Stuart and the rest of the army is left behind to harass the Union right. Meade panics, and leaves Gettysburg only to meet Longstreet entrenched outside of Taneytown. Meade has no choice to attack and does so right around the time the rest of the Confederate army joins up with Longstreet. The attack fails, and the entire Union army is routed.

[Ephrum]

From what I've read, the key in Lee's message to Ewell was, "Take that hill if practical", or something to that effect. The point being, he left Ewell a bit of latitude in the order.
Ewell having been under Jackson's command, was used to direct, specific, orders.


A few historians have pointed out, that getting the Rebs reorganized after they got into G-burg, was no easy matter. Thus taking time.

At the end of the first day, with Cemetary Hill still occupied by the Union, what would've been Lee's best move from that point?
Was Longstreet right? Should they have disengaged and moved to better ground?

[Little Powell]

Speaking of re-organzing the rebs in the town, there's a great post at Gettysburg Daily today on the town and the skirmishing that went on there.

http://www.gettysburgdaily.com/

[norb]

Ephrum wrote:

From what I've read, the key in Lee's message to Ewell was, "Take that hill if practical", or something to that effect. The point being, he left Ewell a bit of latitude in the order.
Ewell having been under Jackson's command, was used to direct, specific, orders.

Now I can't remember where I heard this, but didn't Lee word most of his orders that way? I thought that he just liked to word things nicely, but he expected them to be followed. Like when I say to my kids, "Please go clean up your room.". Even though I try to treat them with respect, they know that there will be punishment if they don't do it. I thought that I heard that this was the way Lee worked.

[Gfran64]

Really enjoying this discussion!

I don't see the large political outcry if Meade were to have lost Cemetery Hill/Ridge on the first day. Meade's initial plan was to concentrate at the Pipe Creek line. Lincoln would have known this. I don't think Lincoln would have left Meade go after a week in command of the AOP. Lee was looking to bait the AOP into hitting him after he was concentrated, other than that he really had no specific plan. He was just about as strung out as the AOP. If Meade withdraws to the Pipe Creek line after day one then what does Lee do? He can't threaten Baltimore or Washington. He can't cross the Susquehanna otherwise he is Sherman marching to the sea, living off the land, with an enemy in his rear; except he has no friendly navy to great him when he reaches the beach. Vicksburg still would have fallen and Lincoln would have something to celebrate thus decreasing the panic in the north.

So what is Lee to do? Meade would certainly be getting pressure from Washington to do something. Meade probably would have threatened Lee's rear/flank at Williamsport thus cutting his route off back to VA and his supply line. That would force Lee to counter that move by moving toward Hagerstown. Perhaps that is where the battle would have continued. If Lee fights a series of smaller battles over a longer period of time he is likely to run very low on supplies and ammunition. As I see it when Lee went north he lost his ability to concentrate his army around good routes of supply and reinforcements and then fight offensively out of a defensive position which is how he had done so well in the past. Now the tables are completely turned on him. Lee lost Gettysburg when he crossed the Potomac.

On a different note, when evaluating Generals, I think the the Federal generals are at a tactical disadvantage as their task was to win/attack/occupy, destroy the enemy army. No easy task. On the contrary, most Confederate generals were tasked with not loosing/defending/holding. That plays towards the Confederate side looking better due to their ability to fight defensively and then counterattack. If this game is somewhat reflective as to how it was to command troops tactically, and I think it is, then we know that the former is more difficult than the latter.

Just my opinion.

Regards,

Greg B)