DRM

[Fish_au]

i prefer getting the code for limitless installs, so that you activate/deactivate the app. if you want to play MP/LAN you need 2 licences, which seems fair enough.

i don't like the idea of paying full money for a game but having it taken away after 5 installs. i may well have installed TC2M more than 5 times on different machines and at different times (TC2M is up there for my favourite game of all time). i'd feel a bit dudded if i'd had to pay for it twice.

[norb]

Harag wrote:

Norb, would it be possible to offer BOTH types when ordering. That way it would be up to the us which we would want?

I don't think so, but I haven't asked. It would be really confusing coding and tech support to offer both. So I'm leaning away from that.

[norb]

Fish_au wrote:

i don't like the idea of paying full money for a game but having it taken away after 5 installs. i may well have installed TC2M more than 5 times on different machines and at different times (TC2M is up there for my favourite game of all time). i'd feel a bit dudded if i'd had to pay for it twice.

I understand. But software is moving away from owning it to more renting it. But I know what you mean. I just replayed Tron 2.0 with my son. I pulled out the old disk and put it in and we played. That doesn't work for direct download software though, no disk.

This is just brainstorming.....
What if the price was lower, and you got 2 installs from 1 purchase. You basically paid for installs. You could not deactivate or anything really. If you needed more installs you would buy two more. No reason to worry about running out because the price point would expect that you might need more. Maybe offer discounts for the more you buy. Treat it more like a consumable, 2 installs, then it's done.

No matter which way we decide, someone is going to hate it and tell us that they're not going to buy the game because of it. I realize that. But we want to make as many people happy as possible and make it as transparent as possible so that you can enjoy the game.

[Janh]

Hmmh, how long will NSD support the game, i.e. what will happen if I want to reinstall my game say 7 years from now and don't have my license anymore (case 1)? Or do you plan to patch it after a couple years to DRM free anyways? That would relieve me of a lot of worries.
Sounds then like the 5 licenses version is much better if I can then reinstall my game as often as I want with each license. Or sell it again when I move on to the next game. Though I don't see why 5 and not 2?

I personally prefer having the option to install on my desktop as well as on my notebook too since I travel a lot. It would be a huge hassle to have to reactivate every time I switch, particularly since when travelling a stable internet connection is all but granted.

UBI is just doing something potentially disastrous and I hope customers will vote with their wallet against permanent online DRM. At least it seems from subsim and other forums that ~84% (n=~1000) people want to boycott new games and lots cancelt preorders. Some companies appear to misuse "piracy" as a simple explanation to cover-up bad design decisions, or reduce reselling of games. I thought the temporary drop in music CD sales in the past 5-8 years and the partial recovery after companies started to remove copy protections in that branch should send a pretty obvious signal.

For me it is a serious problem due to traveling, and I simply cannot buy any of their games anymore if I can't play 2/3 of my time. Maybe as budget title in a few years, without DRM. Guess I have seen many generations of games, so if a title comes 3 years late, I don't care anymore. There are anyways so many games out there for my little free time.

Good thing your ideas don't seem to be such a hassle, Norb. I am really curious to play against the new AI. I hope it beats the TC2M AI by lengths. Did you already come up with plans to release a development kit with manual? I'd like to check that to see how much more moddable the AI will be and how many more scripting commands you guys have implemented.... that would be a real selling point to me!

[pakfront]

Thanks for asking, Norb. And also thanks for not requiring an internet connection to play - that drives me bonkers.

I prefer the 'iTunes' option:
1) You receive a reg code, it activates the app. ...

Ideally I'd like to be able to install on 2 machines at a time though (desktop and laptop). Or
it would be nice if, like the old Combat Mission, an unregistered version could be used to play on LAN so that I wouldn't have to buy 2 licenses for the rare times I have someone else in the house who might enjoy the game. If the demo allows LAN play as a client but not a host perhaps?.

However, I can see how that might be exploited. Chances are I'd buy 2 copies if this was not possible. Just make sure we can have multiple registrations synced to a single email address!

[norb]

We do plan to release a dev kit with the manual, but have no date for that yet. We need the game to come out and to support any issues.

You will only need to connect to activate/deactivate. It's pretty lite stuff. Nothing crazy, just to stop the shoplifters.

I fully expect to remove the drm stuff at some point. I like to do that once we're done with it ourselves.

A ton of our work now is on the AI, mainly because the rest of the game is done so we have a solid base to test against. There have been a lot of changes. It all started with us not wanting men to march through each other and went on from there. Everyone is working very hard to make sure that it surpasses any previous project. But we won't know until people play, soon.

[Garnier44]

This is just brainstorming.....
What if the price was lower, and you got 2 installs from 1 purchase. You basically paid for installs. You could not deactivate or anything really. If you needed more installs you would buy two more. No reason to worry about running out because the price point would expect that you might need more. Maybe offer discounts for the more you buy. Treat it more like a consumable, 2 installs, then it's done.

Interesting idea, but I think it would lead to more unhappiness than the rest.

Perhaps more people would buy the game at first due to the low price. Those that notice the DRM and understand what it means are going to protect their two installations so they never lose them. On the other hand those who don't understand it or simply make a mistake, are going to end up losing their game that they paid for, and that will certainly discourage them from buying it again.

I don't know, I'm all against renting software, but apparently it works as seen by the MMOs nowdays. The question is whether the market for this game is going to like it, and as I think it is generally an older target audience, I'm thinking it wouldn't.



I would follow the example of the best developer/publisher there is, Paradox. If you haven't noticed, their forums are full of happy customers, unlike almost all other official game forums.

With GamersGate you can download your games anywhere as often as you need to. To play online, and to visit the FAQ, Tech Support and Bug Reports forums you have to have a unique key registered with your forum account. I think that system works well myself. It makes the fanbase very happy and a happy fanbase will grow.

You could try to ensure that no one uses the game illegitimately, but this in the end is going to give the game less exposure and if it makes fans unhappy, it's going to mean less original customers.

[norb]

Garnier44 wrote:

I don't know, I'm all against renting software, but apparently it works as seen by the MMOs nowdays. The question is whether the market for this game is going to like it, and as I think it is generally an older target audience, I'm thinking it wouldn't.

I used to be too, until I started spending 5 years of my nights and weekends working on them. Attitudes change a lot when it's your sweat and blood in the product.

Garnier44 wrote:

With GamersGate you can download your games anywhere as often as you need to. To play online, and to visit the FAQ, Tech Support and Bug Reports forums you have to have a unique key registered with your forum account. I think that system works well myself. It makes the fanbase very happy and a happy fanbase will grow.

They received a ton of criticism for Gamersgate. It took many years for the fanbase to accept it. Many people refused to buy their games for a long time. People hated it. But like anything else, it just takes a while for the consumers to realize that it's not as bad as the haters make it out to be. They're getting better, but they went through a tough road to get there.

[O. O. Howard]

I have installed an uninstalled TC2M literally countless times on 5 or 6 different computers as I have been transferred around to different places - all for my own use. I have had it on two computers at a time, but given the choice between multiple computers and lots of re-installs - I would go for limitless re-installs.

[BOSTON]

A boxed CD would really shine for me! It (CD) would be like money in the bank for when you really need it. I own 3 TC2Ms, 2 are still in the wrapper as backups. Three computers later that 1st Cd still works just great.