Multiplay totally broken-Due to Gamey ARTY TACTIS

[Garnier]

Well if the players are smart, they will bring their arty right up to the front line and this arty can be managed properly in such a way that regardless of the rules being followed, is not historical. They will blast the infantry in front of them, while not taking any damage themselves. Now regardless of who wins using these tactics, it's the tactics themselves that I think aren't fun.

The tactics that work are the thing that is not historical. My opinion is that historical gameplay means the things the players do and the decisions they make mimic reality, not that the cannons do just as many kills as they did in real life and so on.

It can be fixed, rather easily once we can mod (though it may take a lot of games to get it just right). And it's only "broken" if you consider playing by these tactics to be "broken". I foresee that once modding is allowed, a few gameplay mods will emerge, and likely one of them people will like most, and it will evolve until the community perfected gameplay is spread to most mods.

It's just right now it's not fun to play competitively if you don't enjoy these tactics. I have hope for the future.

[AP514]

Mplay Broken ?? sure if Exploits can be done....
the Game Allows the units to be played like they are(totaly unreal)...if there is away to exploit a player will do it...the program should keep this from being done......that is all.

AP514

[MrSpkr]

AP, I agree that we should try to get norb and company to code out gamey tactics. Was there ever an instance in which a Civil War commander ordered arty to move up and unlimber 100m from the enemy? If not, why not code in the same "skedaddle" behavior into the arty that is currently in Devin's (or was it Gamble's) cavalry in the first scenario? Or perhaps code the arty to flee if it becomes unlimbered within 100m of the enemy where there is no intervening friendly infantry unit between the arty and infantry?

As an aside, an offset of the arty tactics (while similarly gamey) is to do the columnar rush. Have one infantry unti form column (TC'd, of course) and doubletime towards the arty. Then have it charge each battery in turn. The enemy arty will quickly fall to your regiment. Gamey? Yeah, pretty much -- but it will discourage the other player from engaging in the gamey Arty Tank Advance tactics you deplore.

Steve

[RebBugler]

AP514 wrote:

Mplay Broken ?? sure if Exploits can be done....
the Game Allows the units to be played like they are(totaly unreal)...if there is away to exploit a player will do it...the program should keep this from being done......that is all.

AP514

I think I know a quick fix...ELIMINATE TC

However, I'm not even for that. But, I think some changes, increasing musket range, more effective musket use on artillery flanks, for example, would help eliminate some gamey problems you've experienced. Still, the most efficient way to beat gamey, is to 'out gamey' your opponent. It is a game you know, if you want it entirely historical based, then have a well-established code of conduct, among your fellow generals.

In the meantime, we'll work on our end to root out that evil slayer of historical play...Dr. Gamey. :woohoo:

[GShock]

As I said, and said many times, as long as the artillery is not punching as intended and historically correct at medium and long ranges, the players will NEED to use it at short range. Once that is fixed, sending artillery in front line will not be an option anymore. Players will also have to start using counterbattery fire since the enemy artillery will give big hits to the units in front line combat.

On the other hand, a single regiment of 300 men should be able to rout 4 artillery batteries with much more ease than it does right now.
The mere fact all the batteries are able to shoot even more than 1 cannister round on the regiment being 160yds away which is shooting on them is a TERRIBLE and ahistorical problem.

300 men shooting on 60 who are not really shooting back with muskets have got to kill them very very easy with heavey results on the artillery losses which in turn should translate in big hits on morale even for batteries in the nearby (not detached) that have not taken a single hit.

If my volley shoots down 15 men on one battery I can guarantee you that the other 3 batteries will shoot their cannister ***if possible*** or rout immediately without even shooting a single round *and leaving the artillery piece behind*.

The way the game currently models the artillery is totally unsatisfactory to my eyes but it's NOT a game breaker a deal breaker or a good reason to say MP is broken. It isn't.

Look at how things went in Manassas and later on in Chancellorsville (Gods & Generals) when the infantry reaches cannister range.

[kg_sspoom]

I have heard alot of complaints on the artillery so far.
I cant say that I have a problem with it, especially not a big one.
Long range artillery fire, especially Confederate was sketchy at best of times.
Poor quality fuses and shells were a constant problem for the south.

As far as gamey use..... Do what is necessary to minimise its effect.

Keep some troops in reserve for when that battery is headed your way and use them to quickly charge the batteries before they can deploy.
Or have gentlemans rules regarding certain things.

[GShock]

It is only a matter of time.

This is unmodded 1.0. Things are bound to change for the better in about 2 weeks time when the SDK is released then, there is going to be a huge improvement with the 1.1.

At present time, the best option is the one sspoom mentioned: House rules.

Meanwhile it's a pleasure to play and this is sure to get better and better.

[Garnier]

One important issue that helps the close up artillery is how easy it often is to escape with the guns. If infantry start coming up close, you can just run the guns away, and usually they can limber and be gone before the infantry arrive, assuming you have some infantry of your own nearby. And then there's the withdraw by recoil which probably is much easier to pull off in game than in real life.

I think improving artillery effectiveness at longer ranges is going to be necessary, but something will also have to be done about artillery at close range.

A possible way to help would be to have counter-battery fire more effective, so when the enemy puts their guns right at the front, you can counter-battery them with your guns from a distance.

I think one of the biggest issues is simply how deadly canister is. Killing about 30 men with every shot. That can be imagined when you're talking about a solid line advancing toward a fresh cannon that's all prepared, but once there's smoke everywhere, the infantry are taking cover/hiding, and there are bullets flying, it wouldn't continue to kill the same amount with every shot.

It's the decisions and their results that aren't realistic.

[Kerflumoxed]

In the "For What It's Worth" department:

Without doing any extensive research, I seem to recall several instances during the war when artillery was advanced to, or even in front of, the lines. Perhaps the most "famous" incident occurred at Fredricksburg; John Pelham advanced his 2-gun battery in front of the right flank of the Confederate lines at Fredricksburg, delaying the Federal advance for several hours.

As to the casualty rate of the "offending" gun crews, there are recorded instances of the men serving the piece surviving horrific fire with minimal casualties, especially when supported by infanty that would "naturally" draw the fire of the opposition.

J

PS: Might add that according to one source, "During the Civil War only about 10 per cent of the casualties were due to artillery fire."

[Paladin]

There is nothing new here, almost any game you care to name has issues like this that some people will try to exploit.It has always come down to the people that you play with that are going to make or break your MP experiences. Sooner or later you will see a realism community spring up within the SOW community which of course is something we all would have expected the SOW community to be to begin with and those will be the folks that you play with and the problems mentioned bye AP514 will be minimized.

I have been very surprised by the quality of this title out of the box so to speak.There are a few problems here and there but bye in large better then anything I have purchased in a fairly long time. A good example is another hybrid RTS title that I purchased the last day of January who's MP side can best be described as a complete Goat screw.

I place the blame for gamey tactics and play where I believe it belongs.....the players