engagement ranges

[larrytagg]

Bruce Trinque of the Gettysburg Discussion Group just sent me the best research I have yet seen on engagement ranges of formed bodies of infantry.
His research builds on Paddy Griffith (_Battle Tactics of the Civil War_), Brent Nosworthy (_Crucible of Courage_), and a couple of other researchers who have investigated opening engagement ranges.
Paddy Griffith had the average "open fire" range at 104 yards in 1861-2, 127 yards in 1863, and 141 yards in 1864-5, with an overall mean of 121 yards.
Brent Nosworthy calculated an average engagement range of 141 yards for the Civil War.
Mark Grimsley, with 89 data points from major Eastern battles, calculated an average beginning engagement range of 116 yards.
Now Bruce has done a study of the Official Records which yielded 368 data points (!). His results: For firefights in the years 1861-2, the average engagement range was 131 yards; for firefights in 1863, the average range was 171 yards; for firefights in 1864-5, the average range was 190 yards. As the soldiers got more battle experience, they got less gung ho about close-range firefights, and stood back farther when opening fire.
Bruce did a special study of Gettysburg for me, with 29 data points, and yielded an average range of 125 yards for Gettysburg engagement ranges.
So, at 160 yards, Scourge of War: Gettysburg is definitely in the ballpark for 1863, but we could move it in to 125 yards to really simulate the closer-in fighting that reflects the desperate character of the fighting at Gettysburg.

[file name=Bruce__s_engagement_ranges.doc size=68096]http://www.norbsoftdev.com/media/kunena ... ranges.doc[/file]

[Chamberlain]

Good stuff Larry,

At 125 yards, it would give battles another perspective...

Chamberlain

[Garnier]

An average of 125 wouldn't mean that the maximum was 125 though, would it? Many firefights in game do occur at less than 160, 160 is just the max.

[Little Powell]

Garnier wrote:

An average of 125 wouldn't mean that the maximum was 125 though, would it? Many firefights in game do occur at less than 160, 160 is just the max.

Good point. We wouldn't want the max to be decreased to 125 because firefights did happen at greater distances. It was just more common at 125 yards at Gettysburg. However we have discussed the idea of decreasing the effectiveness the farther the range, even letting them shoot over 200 yards to be out of canister range (so we can get infantry peppering away at gunners like they did in the war).

So 125 yards, you get the maximum effectiveness. This will encourage players to want to fight at this historic distance.

But you can still fight much farther away (possibly up to 300 yards) but the effectiveness will be greatly decreased.

Thoughts?

[CoB4thTEXAS]

Little Powell wrote:

Garnier wrote:

An average of 125 wouldn't mean that the maximum was 125 though, would it? Many firefights in game do occur at less than 160, 160 is just the max.

Good point. We wouldn't want the max to be decreased to 125 because firefights did happen at greater distances. It was just more common at 125 yards at Gettysburg. However we have discussed the idea of decreasing the effectiveness the farther the range, even letting them shoot over 200 yards to be out of canister range (so we can get infantry peppering away at gunners like they did in the war).

So 125 yards, you get the maximum effectiveness. This will encourage players to want to fight at this historic distance.

But you can still fight much farther away (possibly up to 300 yards) but the effectiveness will be greatly decreased.

Thoughts?

I agree with the 300 yrd rifle range, only if you have a way of holding rifle fire, kinda like the the arty has now.

Never ever liked the fact that arty could move to 200 yrds with no harm comming to them, then just start blasting away.

Heck, the terrain is going to dictate rifle ranges for the most part.

[Marching Thru Georgia]

That's a great find, Larry! It's just the sort of data we need to make more historically accurate changes to the game. I believe the game has an optimal range variable that the AI uses to set the firing distance plus or minus a random distance. Now we have a good number to give it, if it is not already set to this value. In addition to the good idea of allowing troops to fire at longer distances with reduced effectiveness, the AI could choose to fire at those ranges based on the unit's skill and experience and perhaps, fatigue levels.

[Garnier]

Good point. We wouldn't want the max to be decreased to 125 because firefights did happen at greater distances. It was just more common at 125 yards at Gettysburg. However we have discussed the idea of decreasing the effectiveness the farther the range, even letting them shoot over 200 yards to be out of canister range (so we can get infantry peppering away at gunners like they did in the war).

So 125 yards, you get the maximum effectiveness. This will encourage players to want to fight at this historic distance.

But you can still fight much farther away (possibly up to 300 yards) but the effectiveness will be greatly decreased.

This is the first thing I modded with the SDK, and will most certainly be in use any time I play MP after mod folders are enabled. If it was done in vanilla that would be wonderful.

My opinion is that maximum canister and rifle range should be identical, so there isn't that little gap where one side or the other is absolutely powerless in a rifle vs cannon fight. Regardless of how "accurate" the numbers may be, the tactics used when such a gap exists do not strike me as realistic.

[Jack ONeill]

I too have seen this research. I have both of Paddy Griffiths books and Crucible of Courage. Something else to add here. Mr. Griffiths research also shows, due to the number of smoothbores employed by both sides AND the density of North American terrain, the average firefight range was in reality 40 yards. Some Confederate units carried smoothbores almost to the end of the war. I agree, at Gettysburg the ranges were probably longer, but then this was pretty much low rolling hills with wide expanses of cultivated farmland. Great fields of fire. Gettysburg and Antietam were the exceptions. Chancellorsville, Shiloh, Wilderness, Spotsylvania Courthouse, The Seven Days battles - all fought in rugged, stream-broken, heavily forested areas.
Having done Wilderness as a reenactor, I can say with assurance the firefight ranges of 40 yards is about right. Once we finally found the Federal troops, (after groping around for what seemed like forever), we exchanged fire with the Damn Yankees at roughly 30-40 yards. The woods were so dense, that's when we first saw them.
Here's the picture for your minds eye - Two horribly confused battlelines blazing away at each other furiously. Literally, all you can see of the opposing side are shoes, Battleflags and rifle smoke. As an NCO, I travelled the line to try and find members of my company lost during the advance into the woods. Some parts of our "lines" were 6-7 men deep, firing. Other parts had platoon-sized holes in it. No-one could or would advance because you couldn't see any gaps in the opposing lines to exploit due to the smoke. No organization at all beyond a few men and an NCO or an Officer close by them. We didn't even know thw Federals had withdrawn until the smoke cleared.
So, I'm thinking the ranges in the game are just fine.
My two cents.

Sic Semper Tyrannis

Jack B)

[kg_sspoom]

I also like the engagement ranges as they are.
Not only did some of the better rifles engage at
farther than 160yds so did Artillery use canister
at greater than 200yds. So it seems fairly well balanced to me.

Im guessing that the ranges we have now are where the fire actually starts
being effective instead of having us waste ammo at longer ranges.

[larrytagg]

The researchers (Griffith and Nosworthy), including Batrinque, stress that many references to starting engagement ranges can be found at every distance from 20 to 250 yards.
I agree with Little Powell that we should lengthen regiments' rifle-musket range to a distance outside canister range. However, this still leaves us with the problem of how best to simulate starting engagement ranges for infantry vs. infantry in SOWGB.
The game's 160-yard default engagement range does square well with Bruce Trinque's research for the year 1863: he found 107 references in the OR and the average unit opened fire at 171 yards. However, Gettysburg was closer-fought than average, according to the 25 OR references he found for this battle.
At this point, I would ask interested players to play the game, paying attention to starting engagement ranges: I have done so lately, and have noticed that although 160 yards is the default, not every unit starts firing at that range, especially if they are closing on the target's flank. If you notice something interesting, please report it in this thread.
If we had ambushes, the average starting engagement range would come down. If I'm not mistaken, as it is now a unit can see every unit that can see it. If we got hiding in wood lines or behind stone walls into the game, the average starting engagement ranges would come down. Probably tricky to code, however.
I spent yesterday scouting out Bruce's Gettysburg references. My notes are attached here.
[file name=Infantry_vs.doc size=43520]http://www.norbsoftdev.com/media/kunena ... try_vs.doc[/file]