Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?

Kerflumoxed
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?

Post by Kerflumoxed »

Braxton Bragg wrote:
General Hampton, I fear the British are not great favorites of Americans right now, It seems we outside the Usa have no right to even discuss such things as american history!

Braxton Bragg
Not true! The British are our favorite Allies...even though we all have sailed on rough waters from time-to-time! I, for one, have always welcomed the insight provided by the opinions of others!

While serving many years ago at Warren AFB in Cheyenne, WY, the movie "Patton" had just been released. Like most opinionated "Yankees," I laughed at the portryal of FM Montgomery. Attached to our office was a RAF observor who frequently and openly participated in our discussions. The week following the release of the movie we were having a grand time discusssing the finer points of the movie when the topic of Montgomery came up and Patton's referral to his behavior as that of a "rabbit." Lighting his pipe, the RAFer calmly noted, "Well, we needed our heroes, too!" I had never thought of it that way and became more impressed as I reflected upon his observation...and somewhat ashamed of our disparaging remarks.

We, in the west, often repeat an old Indian saying: "Never judge a man until you have walked a mile in his mocasins!" As I have aged, I have found this to be sage advice!

Thanks for your participation and your perspectives...they ARE appreciated!

J
Jack Hanger
Fremont, NE
[/size]
"Boys, if we have to stand in a straight line as stationary targets for the Yankees to shoot at, this old Texas Brigade is going to run like hell!" J. B. Poley, 4th Texas Infantry, Hood's Texas Brigade
Hampton Legion HQ
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?

Post by Hampton Legion HQ »

And Lincoln actually made more states secede by raising the volunteers. He made no attempt on diplomacy.
Last edited by Hampton Legion HQ on Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"I cannot help but think that great results would have been obtained had my views been thought better of; yet I am much inclined to accept the present condition as for the best."
General James Longstreet- Post Gettysburg
Armchair General
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?

Post by Armchair General »

Hampton Legion HQ wrote:
And Lincoln actually made more states secede by raising the volunteers. He made no attempt on diplomacy.
I've quoted this line time and time again. His first inaugural, "In YOUR hands, my dissatisfied countrymen, not mine, is the momentous occasion of Civil War."

Lincoln passed the ball to the South, and the South fumbled it bad.

And going to one of your earlier posts, Fort Sumter did not belong to South Carolina just because they drew new lines in a map. It was built by the Federal government, sustained by the Federal government, it was property of the Federal government. Think of embassies in foreign countries; when a person is in the embassy, they are thought to be on the land of the nation that the embassy belongs to.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure.
Shirkon
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?

Post by Shirkon »

Exactly what States Rights had been violated by Lincoln? All of you Lost Cause advocates raise the States Rights banner. Just what rights were violated? South Carolina seceded before Lincoln even left Springfield to go to Washington so he didn't violate any. Did he really as the South feared intend to do anything to abolish slavery? No, he was for the slow voluntary compensated abolishion of slaver. Did he intend to repeal the Fugitive Slave Act? No, he couldn't have if he had wanted to. High tafiffs on imported goods? The representatives and senators from the South had the votes to block those tariffs they decided were too high. The South controlled both the House and the Senate and could have blocked any attempt to legislate slavery. It was only after the Southern Representitives and Senators left that Northern legislators had the votes to do anything.

The only thng that Lincoln did that caused the Civil War was be elected by popular vote against the South's wishes. For years the South controlled the government through their power block in the House and Senate. All the compromises leading up to the war show how they manuevered things to get their way. When they finally were defeated in something they acted like a bunch of kids who because the game wasn't going their way, packed up their gloves and balls and yelled "You all cheat, we aren't going to play with you anymore!"
Last edited by Shirkon on Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.

Sherman, December 1863, remark to a Tennessee woman.
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?

Post by Hampton Legion HQ »

I think that the North was like the UN at that point. They tried to give the people under it's control too much government that the Southern states wanted handle themselves, whether that was slavery or any other policy. It was not supposed to be like that.
[img size=200]http://www.carolinabeach.net/archive/gr ... lag_lg.jpg[/img]

"I cannot help but think that great results would have been obtained had my views been thought better of; yet I am much inclined to accept the present condition as for the best."
General James Longstreet- Post Gettysburg
Shirkon
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?

Post by Shirkon »

Hampton Legion HQ wrote:
I think that the North was like the UN at that point. They tried to give the people under it's control too much government that the Southern states wanted handle themselves, whether that was slavery or any other policy. It was not supposed to be like that.
What too much control did the government have? The Southern representitives and senators could block any legislation that took control from the states. Our President doesn't enact laws, the Congress does and the Southern states controlled Congress. The President only signs laws enacted by Congress or if he opposes them strongly enough he can veto them, but the Congress can then over-ride that veto with a vote of 2/3. Like the British Monarchy, our President isn't all powerful like the monarchy was in the far distant past. And I don't see where the UN governs anything. It can impose sanctions if a majority of the member nations vote for it and one of the veto powers don't veto them. But the UN has no power at all that isn't granted by votes of it's membership.

As far as the States wanting to handle things themselves, the South pushed through the Fugitive Slave Act over Northern objections to protect their ownership of slaves. That act FORCED the Northern states to assist in the capture of run-away slaves against their own personal liberty laws. If anyone had their states rights infringed it was the North by the South's insistance in obeying the Fugitive Slave Act impossed on the North by the Southern politicians.

I really do suggest that you do some actual research on the events leading up to the Civil War. It might open your eyes to some brutal facts about the South and it's curious institution as it was called. Look at what they did over so many years to impose their will and look at all the compromises the North granted them to try and appease them.
War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.

Sherman, December 1863, remark to a Tennessee woman.
Kerflumoxed
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?

Post by Kerflumoxed »

The "Balance of Power" refers only to the U.S. Senate wherein each state, regardless of population, has two senators. In the House of Representatives each state's representation is based upon the number of citizens residing in each state, hence this year's required census to apportion representation.

In the years prior to the war, a careful balance was maintained to prevent one section from dominating the senate. Here is a summary of admissions:

Slave States Year Free States Year
Delaware 1787 New Jersey (Slave until 1804) 1787
Georgia 1788 Pennsylvania 1787
Maryland 1788 Connecticut 1788
South Carolina 1788 Massachusetts 1788
Virginia 1788 New Hampshire 1788
North Carolina 1789 New York (Slave until 1799) 1788
Kentucky 1792 Rhode Island 1790
Tennessee 1796 Vermont 1791
Louisiana 1812 Ohio 1803
Mississippi 1817 Indiana 1816
Alabama 1819 Illinois 1818
Missouri 1821 Maine 1820
Arkansas 1836 Michigan 1837
Florida 1845 Iowa 1846
Texas 1845 Wisconsin 1848
California (One pro-slavery Senator) 1850
Kansas (blocked) Minnesota 1858
Oregon 1859
Kansas 1861

As one can readily see, the Balance of Power was tipping in favor of the North which would, theoretically, enable to the North to "overpower" Southern attempts to maintain slave-friendly legislation in the senate. Further, attempts to expand slavery into other states were being blocked by anti-slavery proponents. This is the control with which the Southerners were concerned.

Can the president pass law? Yes, he can, through interpretation...and it continues today! Examine "Executive Orders", for example, as well as regulatory agencies such as the EPA.

Curious institution? I believe you mean the "Peculiar Institution."

States Rights Banner? As I noted previously, all powers not granted to the national government, nor prohibited by the Constitution, were reserved for the states. This assault by the Federal government was of a concern then (read the Kentucky Resolutions and Virginia Resolutions, for example) and continues today! (For example, where in the Constitution does the Federal government have the authority to dictate education policy? Until the Carter Administration, it had been 100% the perogative of the state. Today, the "Power of the Purse String" (i.e. money) is the only power the Federal Government has over education: "If you don't play by our rules, we will not "allocate" money to your state....money which originates in your state!)

The Southern fear in States Rights was the continued growth of "free states" which would completely upset the Balanc of Power. This would result in the inability of the Southern bloc of states to prevent any anti-slavery legislation that theoretically would "hurt" their section.

As to the new Fugitive Slave Act, it was part and parcel of the Compromise of 1850...it was not "pushed through" or "imposed" by the Southern States. It was a "compromise" agreed to by the North in return for the admission of California as a "free state" as wanted by the antislavery forces in the North. Could it have been over-ridden by the North later in the decade? Look at the slave vs. free states Balance of Power and judge for yourself. (One interesting aspect of the Fugitive Slave Law was the fee schedule for the court trial of anyone suspected of being a fugitive...if found to be guilty of being a runaway, the judge was paid $10.00; if innocent, the judge was paid $5.00!)

No, the South did not control either house of Congress. In the House of Representatives, the North had a clear majority. In the Senate, both sections had equal representation...2 seats per state. As long as each section maintained this balance, NEITHER section could ride roughshod over the other...that could only occur when the Balance of Power was upset (see the state admission table above).

...and I promised I was not going to get involved....Lord, help me!

J
Jack Hanger
Fremont, NE
[/size]
"Boys, if we have to stand in a straight line as stationary targets for the Yankees to shoot at, this old Texas Brigade is going to run like hell!" J. B. Poley, 4th Texas Infantry, Hood's Texas Brigade
charlesobscure
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?

Post by charlesobscure »

<strong>Little Powell wrote:</strong>
<strong>Armchair General wrote:</strong>
<strong>norb wrote:</strong>
So had lincoln not won the election, there would not have been a civil war?
and he said the Civil War had to happen sometime for the South to finally get rid of slavery and to settle the sectional crisis that had been going on for centuries.
I agree that if it took a civil war to free the slaves, then it was worth it. However, the war had nothing to do with slavery until Lincoln realized that it was the only way to win. He wanted to save the Union with or without freeing the slaves. But when the North was losing morale and other countries were close to becoming allies with the South, he wrote the Emancipation Proclamation. After that, the North had something to fight for again, and no other countries wanted to support a Confederacy that was pro-slavery. Even though in reality; to Southerners, the war had little to do with slavery. It was about states rights and being against federalism. To them, it was a second war of independence.
I think that misses the point. You are correct in stating that slavery was not presented as a driving force in the war until after its first two years. But that ignores the fact that the reason why the state v. federal argument came to the point of violence in 1860 was slavery. Slavery was what drove the South to invoke states' rights, to invoke a freedom from interference with their "property" and their ability to move their "property" around the country. On its face, the war was initially a constitutional argument, especially in the South where the rhetoric was largely reminiscent of the American Revolution. However, behind that facade lay the issue of slavery. It was slavery that drove the constitutional and economic issues to the forefront and what ultimately incited the war.
Willard
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?

Post by Willard »

<strong>charlesobscure wrote:</strong>
I think that misses the point. You are correct in stating that slavery was not presented as a driving force in the war until after its first two years. But that ignores the fact that the reason why the state v. federal argument came to the point of violence in 1860 was slavery. Slavery was what drove the South to invoke states' rights, to invoke a freedom from interference with their "property" and their ability to move their "property" around the country. On its face, the war was initially a constitutional argument, especially in the South where the rhetoric was largely reminiscent of the American Revolution. However, behind that facade lay the issue of slavery. It was slavery that drove the constitutional and economic issues to the forefront and what ultimately incited the war.
The Civil War was not a "constitutional argument" but a political/economic one. During the initial decades of the Union's existence, politics and economics of the Union were dominated by the South. With the advent of the industrial revolution and "Manifest Destiny" driving national policy, two things happened. First, the North began to dominate in economic matters in the Union and second, the South began to lose the political dominance it had exerted over national politics since the inception of the Union.

From a Southern standpoint, the political problem was more dire, which resulted in multiple compromises to ensure that it held AT LEAST a comparable balance with the North in the Senate. Consequently as additional states were incorporated into the Union, it was essential to Southern politicians that a balance between slave and free states be maintained. By maintaining a 1-to-1 ratio in the Senate, the South could impact national politics without having a majority in the House. In those years when a pro-South president was in power, the VPs vote would ensure southern control of at least 1 half the legislative branch in addition to the executive branch. Of course control in the Senate also provided the South the ability to control the Judiciary and the Supreme Court. The majority of both Presidents and SC Justices leading up to the CW were from the South.

Fast forward to the election of 1860 - the demographic shifts of population to the Northern states really put the writing on the wall for the South with the increasingly likelyhood that they could not get another pro-slavery Southern candidate elected in the future. Without the control of the presidency and the balance in the Senate under increasing pressure, the South was at the moment of decision. No compromise was going to change the facts that the era of Southern dominance in national politics had come to an end. Instead of transitioning to a loyal minority, the South decided to proverbially "pick-up their ball and go home" through the act of secession.

This nonsense about states rights is just legal mumble jumble to obfuscate the facts in an attempt to justify the act of secession - secession not for independence - but secession in an ill-conceived attempt to preserve Southern political and economic dominance which had long since expired in reality except in the mind of the Southern Elite. Of course the whole need for Southern dominance in national politics was not and end in of itself - Southern dominance in national politics was necessary to PRESERVE THE INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY. Ironically, that institution was the very one that benefited the Southern Elite and certainly didn't help the average Southern farmer who did not own slaves.

If the CW wasn't about slavery - and states rights as Southern revisionists now claim - there would have been no need to secede. The only Federal government instrusion the South was concerned about was that into the institution of slavery. Of course the Southern Elite couldn't sell that to the overwhelming majority of Southern soldiers, as the common Southern soldier did not own slaves. Consequently, the Southern Elite manipulated existing regional sentiments in order to preserve an economic institution that ONLY BENEFITED THEM. It is very ironic that the brave Southern soldiers, who paid the ultimate price on the battlefield, had the least to gain from preserving the institution of slavery and the war only served to devastate economic development and pushback the transition from an agrarian to industrial economy in the South.
charlesobscure
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Re:Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?

Post by charlesobscure »

I did not state the war was purely a constitutional argument. I said "on its face" the war was initially posed in constitutional terms, namely by the South. But such a viewpoint glosses over the real issue, slavery.

I think one could argue that the demographics of the antebellum South necessitated reliance on the language of the American Revolution and states' rights to garner support for the war in the South. Any justification posed by the South on the sole basis of slavery would not have engendered a sufficient amount of support among the general population.
Last edited by charlesobscure on Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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