Looking for an 18th Century OOB

[Jack ONeill]

All,

Because I am completely unfocused anymore, I'm now on the hunt for an OOB for the Spanish Succession War. I am looking for an OOB for both sides for the Battle of Cassano 1705 - Austrians under Prince Eugene of Savoy vs. the French/Piedmontese under the Duke of Vendome. I can find OOBs with the units involved, (nod here to CARL and Nafziger), and Army sizes, but nothing with any numbers for the units themselves. Anyone out there, (Zeke and/or Alessillo), have any ideas. Thanks.

Jack B)

[Martin James]

Hey Jack

The problem you face with Cassano, and indeed for almost any WOSS battle, relates to the availability of records. The OOBs in Nafziger, and books on the war, are almost entirely drawn from 2 published collections:

1. ‘Mémoires militaires relatifs à la succession d'Espagne sous Louis XIV’ published by the French Army between the 1820s and 1860s

2. ‘Feldzüge des Prinzen Eugen von Savoyen. Series 2’ published by the Austro-Hungarian Army between the 1870s and 1890s.

These are both multi-volume works containing narrative, some analysis, and also a great deal of primary source material in the form of contemporary correspondence, reports and OOBs. They are a superb resource, but have some limitations. They both occasionally include strength returns, but these are quite rare, and are often just establishment figures rather than actual strengths. From memory there is nothing in either which would give strength returns for this particular battle.

There are masses of additional primary documents in the French army archives at Vincennes, and in the Austrian Kriegsarchiv in Vienna (from which most of the stuff in the above sources was drawn). I do not know this for certain, but think it’s unlikely that strength returns are available for Cassano, as full army musters on campaign were irregular. Even if there were ones, there would be reason to doubt their accuracy, because of the contemporary army structures, poor methods of recording, unreliability and venality of those involved in the counting.

Because of this, generals of the time tended to estimate army strength by counting the number of infantry battalions and cavalry squadrons available to both sides. Their correspondence does not usually quote numbers of troops. That said, when making their plans, they did take account of the strength/quality of their units versus those of the enemy army, if there was known to be a significant difference in that regard. Where modern historians quote army strengths, this is done on the basis of multiplying the numbers of battalions and squadrons by assumed average unit sizes, taking into account establishment strengths and some estimate of attrition to date in the current year. Such an approach is fraught with difficulty, but it is the one I believe you must follow.

You say you have army sizes. Frankly, I would start by questioning those, as many modern books on the war simply re-tread other secondary sources, and any figures will only be as good as the assumptions made. And of course these do not give you the sizes of individual units. You really are going to need to guesstimate those, based on such factors as establishment strength, strength at the start of the campaign (note the two are unlikely to be the same, particularly for French forces in Italy), and likely attrition before Cassano. You will at least have the comfort of knowing that no-one else will be able to easily then shoot you down!

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but am happy to assist if you do decide to persist with your madcap adventure .

Martin

[Zeke]

Someone mention my name? lol

Hi Jack

Well I certainly applaud your choice and ambition! - Unfortunately I can't add more than Martin's very detailed response he is quite correct in terms of reference points that may be useful for basing your OOB on.

Military writing of the period was really in it's infancy and often written years after the event so numbers of troops and their structure can be very sketchy at best.

I always try to get two or three reference points rather than relying on one source but I appreciate it is difficult for this period.

However, I would have a look at the following website the numbers listed here are based on books and research from the period so the estimation on battalion numbers and Cavalry strengths are as accurate as you can hope to be. B)

http://www.spanishsuccession.nl/organisation.html

Hope it helps

Zeke

[Jack ONeill]

MJ and Z,

Thank you both.

I am very much aware of the paucity of information from the time period. Based on what little I could find, I've been able to determine the general sizes of both armies. I have gone with my usual process of averaging the Battalion/Squadron sizes in order to make this one work. Since the French Battalions are relatively small,(450 men), I can actually run this OOB in SR4 mode. Very cool. Again, CARL, Nafziger and Zeke's link, (had that one but didn't recognize it until later - LOL!), have been invaluable. I will post the OOB under another thread title for those of you out there who are using the 18th Century Mod. I'm not quite finished with it. I have all the units, but have to go back in and determine which are Irish, Swiss, etc. Who new there were so many Irish Battalions (Wild Geese) in French Service. I count at least a dozen so far. (The Modding never ends - BWAHAHAHAHA!)

Jack B)

[Zeke]

Yep an interesting subject the origins of the Irish Brigade or Wild Geese regiments which were composed of Irish exiles originally led by Justin McCarthy (Lord Mountcashel ) a noted Irish Jacobite. Formed in 1690 there were five or six regiments who were sent from Ireland to France in exchange for a larger force of French infantry who were sent to fight in the Williamite war in Ireland.

Now the Williamite War (12th Mar 1689 – 3rd Oct 1691) is one of the most hotly disputed parts of British and Irish history …..still to this day, although I’m sure if you ask most people in England today they wont know of it but in Ireland a different story - ‘Cogadh an Dá Rí’ which is Gaelic translates to "war of the two kings" the Jacobite’s supported the deposed (in the glorious Revolution of 1688) Catholic King of England, Scotland and Ireland James II and the Williamite’s who were supporters of Protestant Prince William of Orange – Yes you guessed it was sectarianism induced i.e based on religion (always amazed how religions which teach peace, goodwill and respect kill so many people!)

The conflict lasted 2 years the most famous clash was in 1690 at the Battle of the Boyne but it actually culminated with the siege of Limerick with victory to the Prince of Oranges forces. The Limerick Agreement was signed in October 1691 - Although the Jacobite movement never really died out and still lies just under the surface of Irish politics even now.

After the war and fearing assassination James and many of his Jacobite’s headed over to France much to the consternation of his Jacobite followers who he left behind to be persecuted. James pledged to return but politics intervened and in September 1697 the Treaty of Ryswick was agreed ending the War of the League of Augsburg (The Nine Years' War) with one of the proviso’s being that James' army in exile (or what was left of it) was to be disbanded and many of its officers and men were reformed into new regiments which merged into the original Irish Brigade these units served with distinction in the French Royal Army until the French Revolution and the dissolution of the Royalist forces.

Rather than head home some preferred to stay in the continent serving in both the French Austrian and even the Russian armies. In 1803, the Irish Legion (Légion irlandaise) was formed by Napoleon Bonaparte for Irishmen willing to take part in a future invasion of Ireland (which didn't happen due to the Battle of Trafalgar.) In 1805 it received an Imperial eagle and fought throughout the Napoleonic wars it was finally disbanded in 1815.

[mitra76]

Jack I found there is a recent book on the battle: http://www.libreriamilitare.com/prodott ... id_cat=150 , but it is in italian and there is not guarantee there is a oob