Can we get a video of 1:1 unit ratio play please?

[Jim]

No the map distances are correct but the buildings & trees etc are scaled up some to match the sprites.

-Jim

[RebBugler]

Are you saying the ranges are dumbed down as well. As in arty and musket ranges are smaller to reflect the map size being smaller?

No sir, nothing is "dumbed down" with NSD productions, they are "adjusted accordingly" to maintain historic realism. The only thing that I know of that comes close to that negative statement is that we must limit artillery ranges from historic numbers due to FPS considerations. IOW, hundreds of cannons with historic ranges nearing 2000 yards tax computer resources tremendously as each gun cycles targets within it's given range. I think I explained this right, I'm just the bugler ya know.

Regardless, I'm leaving this thread for now, it's starting to go beyond SR1 discussions and my expertise, which is shallow at best when it comes to the technical side of game design. My fortes are bugle calls, toolbars, flag and scenario design...beyond these I just parrot what I've heard in team meetings.

Hope I've helped out some with this discussion.

[Destraex]

You have all helped of course and I appreciate it.
I had no idea that the sprites were larger than they should be. That aspect reminds me of the old close combat game where sprites defaulted to a larger size and looked silly next to correctly scaled tanks.
The sprites are what the eye gauges range off so would this not put the map and ranges off anyways?

compare the size of that tank to the infantry in the buildings nearby and imagine them trying to get into the hatch .

[con20or]

Guys - I know to some people a 1:1 scale is essential, but I can assure you the game is great and alot of fun. Hopefully after it is released and people have had a chance to play it a bit you will change your opinion.

Getting close now.

[Saddletank]

I echo what Con20or says. Once you get in the game your brain no longer sees any discrepancies and musket ranges of 100 yards, battalions of 200 men and artillery canister of 200-250 yards feels "right". There's no discrepancies between sprite sizes and scenery scale. The sprites I think are about 2x their height, so about 12 feet tall compared to the horizontal yards measured on the ground. each takes up an area 4x the actual size. Houses, trees, roads, clutter is all scaled to the sprites but villages like Plancenoit will have fewer buildings in but still cover the same total area that Plancenoit historically did - its just that because the buildings all have a footprint of 4x the area. fewer of them are needed to fill the total; village area.

Your eye/brain quickly forgets this and gets into the immersion very soon.

Even though a line of 12 foot tall infantry might be shooting at another line of 12 foot tall men 100 yards away the apparent distance is 50 yards due to the big sprites but you don't notice it.

It takes a while to explain but in-game it works pretty well.

[Destraex]

I understand what you are saying. But I am afraid I am looking to see as real as it gets so to speak.

The 1:1 ratio was what excited me but now there are so many range, building and scale abstractions I am starting to get disappointed. That does not mean I will not get it. Just that it will not totally satisfy me until;

(i) The soldiers are made the correct scale
(ii) The range is fixed and correct for all weapons
(iii) The building scale and map scale are correct

I don't care if the scenario is smaller because of computer (or engine) limitations. Just that things look correct and I can say to myself... ahhh. So that's what it must have looked like and this is what it is like to manage a regiment.

I play plenty of other games with abstraction that both are and are not wargames. I was hoping SOW:W would be different. I don't play computer games to get tabletop abstraction but in the hope we can get to as real as can be.

I hope a modder does a "realism" mod for the game and makes in more real in this regard.
I played close combat to death but iirc I always used the in game menu option to make the sprites to scale. Preferring to have tiny men than to look at giants running around tanks. It's part of the reason I switched to combat mission cmx2, it has 1:1 representations of men and everything to scale including support units, I am in love with the game more than anything because of this. OOB is not watered down and nor are ranges or scales for buildings. Nothing is abstracted in that and if they are they are tiny side mechanics that are not so big a deal as to affect the entire tabletop like sprite sizes.

[voltigeur]

Hmm not so sure using cmx2 is a great example to use when arguing for a better sow model. Don't get me wrong I think highly of it, but the cmx2 ai tends to be reasonably brain dead (just look closely at some of the individual solider actions as well as any ai offensive tactics), spotting is currently bug laden and the engine still has no concept of close combat.

cheers

[Destraex]

CMx2 AI is certainly brain dead. You need to play an human opponent.
Also you have to choose your own tactics in detail yourself at the granular level for all actions. This is somewhat the attraction of it. The shere number of tactics available.

But like I said 1:1 ratio is the main drawcard along with all those nice historical OOB and unit details.
The pleasure comes from knowing you are commanding a no holes barred real scale order of battle.

[voltigeur]

The pleasure comes from knowing you are commanding a no holes barred real scale order of battle.

Well that is true, at the macro level it is terrific. But unless you have the luxury of a human opponent it can be a bit of turkey shoot.

Looking forward to see how well Waterloo can create a Napoleonic environment regardless of scale - if it passes the 'immersion' test in terms of period warfare decisions and outcomes I think many will be happy. We shall see

Now a probing question, can halftracks enter la Haye Sainte. No? You Norbsoft guys need to up the realism stakes a bit. lel

[Little Powell]

Looking forward to see how well Waterloo can create a Napoleonic environment regardless of scale - if it passes the 'immersion' test in terms of period warfare decisions and outcomes I think many will be happy. We shall see

Well said, I think immersion is what we strive for the most. If I don't get that "wow" feeling, or forget that I'm sitting in a computer chair and not a saddle, then we don't release..