Contrasts with SOW `1860s?

Let's talk about the issues in converting the SOW engine to handle Waterloo. Ideas, suggestions, feature requests, comments.
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mantrain
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Contrasts with SOW `1860s?

Post by mantrain »

As an amateur history buff I love studying the civil war because it was such a game changer in war making. The number one game-changer was (and correct me if I am wrong) was rifled musketry, and also rifled cannon. The conical bullet that was used in the 1861 Springfield had an effective range of about 200 yards. The parrot and Napoleon were also rifled, and some other engineering changes made them quite a bit more devastating on the battlefield.

So how does this equate to a different game for Waterloo? It would seem to me it would be a lot different on the battlefield.

A question for hist buffs is, could a well trained brigade fire at range of 200 yards and have time enough to re-load prior to a bayonet attack? This certainly was not the case in Napoleons time because I believe muskets were not effective past 100 yards.

And lets not even talk about trains and telegraphs, but winfield Scott loived to see quite a few interesting changes.
Saddletank
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Re: Contrasts with SOW `1860s?

Post by Saddletank »

The rifled musket and rifled cannon had almost no effect at all in the ACW. This was partly because of the densely wooded terrain on many battlefields and partly due to poor troop fire drill - troops frequently fired too high.

They did have a greater effect in Europe where the battlefields were more open, but it wasn't until the 1866 Austro-Prussian war and 1870 Franco-Prussian war when breech-loading rifles really began to dominate in ways that spelled the end of cavalry charges and close range artillery fire.

The trains and telegraphs were the most influential strategy changers, at least as far as the North was concerned as they had the industrial capacity to exploit them, railroads especially.

In SoW Waterloo the smoothbore musket is given a maximum range of 150 yards. This is not correct but it was a game design decision that was linked to cavalry charge/threat ranges and timings of various reactions.

Napoleonic close ranger musketry was frequently more devastating than ACW musketry due to the open terrain, more dense formations and generally better drilled and motivated troops.

Napoleonic artillery was considerably more lethal than ACW artillery.

The balance between the three arms in the Napoleonic period has often been described as having a rock-paper-scissors relationship as each arm had its strengths and weaknesses. This makes, for me, Napoleonic warfare much more interesting and fluid than ACW warfare.

In the several minutes it would take a body of advancing troops to advance through the danger zone of a smoothbore musket armed defender the attackers could expect to take several volleys, possibly three or four. Only those delivered below about 60-75 yards however would be capable of dealing great damage.

However because the Waterloo and Gettysburg game engines are very similar the two games tend to have a quite similar feel.

I personally have issues with the relative combat strengths and firepower of the three arms in the stock SoW-WL game and play a modded version that increases the potency of artillery and skirmishers, among other changes.
HITS & Couriers - a different and realistic way to play SoW MP.
mantrain
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Re: Contrasts with SOW `1860s?

Post by mantrain »

Fascinating response, though I would not agree with your opinion that rifled musketry had no affect in ACW. That is not just true -- it defies physics. Regarding the dense terrain, it would depend on the circumstance, and training/ability was varied. Morale? There was higher morale in Waterloo? That is a very broad statement.
The conical bullet fired from an 1861 Springfield rifle was far more deadly than anything an infantry man carried in Waterloo. The weapon was also more reliable and less susceptible to effects of moisture. I am guessing that a well trained infantryman in ACW using his 1861 Springfield had something like 2.5 the range of his Waterloo counterpart. The rifling and conical bullet made a world of difference. There is just no comparing a lead ball blasted through a smooth bore, to a conical bullet fired and expanded through a rifled barrel -- the physics cannot be argued. Of course one can make distinctions of training etc. But I am pretty sure the US Sharpshooters new how to aim and fire their weapons to high effect. How will could the 3rd Maine?
By the time of the Franco Prussian war there were additional advancements but were still a world away from the changes brought on by Alfred Nobel within the few following years. pondering the technological advancements that occurred between 1840 to about 1885, is staggering. From horse and buggy, to steam locomotive; from smooth bore musket to repeating self-propelled carbines and artillery. Of course in ACW we hadn't gotten there yet.

Let us research the topic on the front-line musket danger zone. I think it would be published at about 150 yards, versus figure of 65 yards for Waterloo. This is why in ACW the opposing formations kept their distance from each-other a lot more compared to the early 1800's tight formations. In fact in some sense ACW took on WW1 like qualities with developments of trenches and other battlefield barricades seen in many campaigns. Think about the images we have of Waterloo and the battlefield. All the formations, foe and ally, were formed in proximity on the battlefield. However in ACW troops approached each-other in columns, then broke up into lines to engage. No square defenses -- they would be usesless against rifled muskets at a distance. In fact Gettysburg was really one large fishhook shaped line. The problem was there were objectives that needed to be met and the attacking lines had to be formed. But you know once those lines came within about 200 yards of their objective men were dropping like flies and the lines struggled to re-form and remain tight. Yes, rifled musketry caused a dramatic change in the landscape of warfare starting in ACW.
Last edited by mantrain on Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
MeerkatRabbit
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Re: Contrasts with SOW `1860s?

Post by MeerkatRabbit »

In the several minutes it would take a body of advancing troops to advance through the danger zone of a smoothbore musket armed defender the attackers could expect to take several volleys, possibly three or four. Only those delivered below about 60-75 yards however would be capable of dealing great damage.
I thought I'd comment on this since I'm reading a book on this very subject right now. There is an interesting passage about how the effectiveness and accuracy of small arms fire would often decrease as the combatants got closer to each other, entirely due to psychological reasons. I'll quote the passage here:
It is probably difficult for the modern mind to conceive of how the attackers could continue to attack, once the defenders began to fire at anything closer than a medium range. It is natural to assume that the danger of being hit with musket fire increased directly as the distance between the attacker and defender decreased. However, Colonel Bugeaud in his perspicacious notes to young officers, assures us that once a firefight had begun at a relatively long range, casualties would actually drop off in the final moments as the two groups of combatants neared one another.

If the defender had begun firing at long range, let's say at around 300 paces, their volleys would initially cause increasing casualties as the attackers advanced. This increase of casualties continued until the attacker was about 100 to 150 paces away and then the rate of casualties would actually start to decline. As the attackers approached, the individual defenders would tend to become increasingly nervous and there would be an increasing degree of confusion as the soldiers struggled to load and deliver their pieces.

Casualties during the last moments tended to be 'trifling at the moment of grappling with the enemy'. The result was that, if the attackers managed to reserve their fire until they reached close quarters, and the defenders had already begun to fire, the attackers stood an extremely good chance of overthrowing the defending line.
This is from the book "With Musket, Cannon and Sword: Battle Tactics of Napoleon and His Enemies" by Brent Nosworthy. A great deal of the book is about how psychology and morale tends to decide battles rather than the technical qualities of the weapons themselves. A disciplined force in good order will usually beat one that is not.

Smoothbore muskets are not that inaccurate, and a good marskman can hit targets 150 yds away on a firing range. There is some weapon accuracy data for smoothbore muskets in this book, from experiments conducted in Britain and France. One experiment suggested:

At 100 yds, hit chance was 53% for veteran troops, 40% for raw troops.
At 200 yds, hit chance was 30% for veteran troops, 18% for raw troops.
At 300 yds, hit chance was 23% for veteran troops, 15% for raw troops.

This all goes out the window in combat though, as we all know. Another quote: "One contemporary historian noted that the Prussians at the Battle of Czaslau had to expend 650,000 cartridges to inflict about 6,500 Austrian casualties (i.e. a 1% casualty rate). This turns out to be a high estimate of the flintlock's effectiveness. Guibert felt, for example, that only 2,000 out of 1,000,000 (0.2%) of all shots resulted in some casualty, while Piobert thought it was necessary to fire between 3,000 and 10,000 (0.01% to 0.03%) shots to effect a single hit."

At Vitoria, the British were only able to inflict one casualty for every 800 rounds fired. The accounts of some of these battles describe complete pandemonium, chaos and confusion, with men firing completely haphazardly, sometimes at their own men, and often with so much smoke you might see nothing at all in front of you except muzzle flashes and the glint of bayonets, even with the enemy only 20 yds away.

It's impossible to imagine what these battles must have actually been like. I thought SoW Gettysburg did a pretty good job simulating casualty rates, but I don't think it modeled morale very well. Waterloo seems to do morale a bit better but I think the casualty rates are too high.
mantrain
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Re: Contrasts with SOW `1860s?

Post by mantrain »

Great post, I would like to find that stats for ACW, they must be around somewhere. I think what would absolutely be dreadful about the business is the thought ob being bayoneted. What did Lewis Amrmistead cry just before he fell, "give em cold steel." In ACW, as in the Napoleonic era, soil could only be taken with the plunging of the bayonet into warm flesh.. Think about yourself on the battlefield, and the thought of a bayonet being ripped through your body. Seems more dreadful than a lead ball to me. So the morale thing, young men facing with absolute starkness the disembowelment of their corporeal being.
stonewalljackson
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Re: Contrasts with SOW `1860s?

Post by stonewalljackson »

I think you might like this read


The rifle musket in civil war combat revolution or evolution
http://www.norbsoftdev.net/forum/the-am ... -evolution
"How do you like this are coming back into the union"
Confederate solider to Pennsylvanian citizen before Gettysburg

"No way sherman will go to hell, he would outflank the devil and get past havens guard"
southern solider about northern general sherman

"Angels went to receive his body from his grave but he was not there, they left very disappointed but upon return to haven, found he had outflanked them and was already there".
northern newspaper about the death of stonewall jackson
Saddletank
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Re: Contrasts with SOW `1860s?

Post by Saddletank »

I'd forgotten we had that article on the forums. It sums up what I was saying.
I think what would absolutely be dreadful about the business is the thought ob being bayoneted. What did Lewis Amrmistead cry just before he fell, "give em cold steel." In ACW, as in the Napoleonic era, soil could only be taken with the plunging of the bayonet into warm flesh.. Think about yourself on the battlefield, and the thought of a bayonet being ripped through your body. Seems more dreadful than a lead ball to me. So the morale thing, young men facing with absolute starkness the disembowelment of their corporeal being.
You're right, the thought of being bayoneted in the stomach or chest is truly appalling which is why so few soldiers in both the Napoleonic and ACW didn't stick around to discover what it felt like. As others above have said and as more modern research of the last 10-15 years has uncovered, battles in these wars had very few hand to hand combats. Combat was decided by the FEAR of being involved in hand-to-hand fighting and one side or the other broke and withdrew before it came to the use of bayonets, in the vast majority of cases.

Yes, there were some melees, especially around the capture or saving of guns and regimental colours, or in built up areas (Napoleonic) but these tended top be between small parties of men and not whole regiments, battalions or even companies.

Soil was not taken by melees but by the fear of them. This is what made one side give up ground and withdraw, even if it was only temporary.

What we see in movies and in wargames rules (both paper+dice and digital) is far too many instances of unit-sized melees.
Last edited by Saddletank on Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mantrain
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Re: Contrasts with SOW `1860s?

Post by mantrain »

"Soil was not taken by melees but by the fear of them. This is what made one side give up ground and withdraw, even if it was only temporary.Soil was not taken by melees but by the fear of them. This is what made one side give up ground and withdraw, even if it was only temporary."


So it is fair to say in the mind of the front-line soldier as he pondered his potential doom his mind roamed to the image of the bayonet stuck in his body, and he thought about this more than the mini ball? I am guessing the mini ball in point of fact did more damage with its high rate of speed and unforgiving nature when contacting bone and organ; where as the bayonet may have a winded operator striking bone and not quite penetrating.

Still, poignant that units broke under fear of the bayonet because the thought is so savage. Imagine your unit being swamped by an over-powering tide of whooping men closing in on your position with dozens or more gleaming bayonets.
I am rather sure I would high-tail it to the rear or swam where more distant like to home any honey.

As far as an example of actually bayonet action in ACW: What about the 18th Maine and the counter-attack at little round top when Chamberlains' Brigade (or was it a Regiment?) plunged down the hill and broke the tide of upcoming Alabamans? Did the Alabamans mostly turn tail? I guess they probably did.
Last edited by mantrain on Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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