Some idea's

[Zeke]

I'm afraid that most games from the "big" developers are developed to be multi platformed i.e XBox PS3 and Pc this means that some games suffer badly as a result - most FPS like Modern Combat fall into this catergory. I've said it before in earlier posts that this is what makes this dedicated team creating this game a rare breed these days - because they actually "care" about the games they produce and "care" what we the users want in the game look at Empire TW - its complete drivel and completely historically inaccurate - I mean a special forces pack (what!!!!!) just done for the wonga!!!and now they are bringing out a Napoleonic version of TW - I dread to think what they will do in that edition (probably have Napoleon as 6ft5 200 pounds with a mohican!!!!)

[norb]

A lot of this comes down to piracy. It's just not profitable to spend a lot on a pc game that is going to be on torrent the week after you release it. Consoles are harder to crack. If a dev releases something with extensive DRM, they are ripped by everyone. So the only option is to develop games for your money making consoles. Then port them as quick as possible to the pc, keeping costs down.

The pc game market appears dead, but it really isn't. Millions play on the pc everyday. It's just that very few buy games, they crack them, and those that do buy usually download them which doesn't show up in the stats.

[Zeke]

norb wrote:

A lot of this comes down to piracy. It's just not profitable to spend a lot on a pc game that is going to be on torrent the week after you release it. Consoles are harder to crack. If a dev releases something with extensive DRM, they are ripped by everyone. So the only option is to develop games for your money making consoles. Then port them as quick as possible to the pc, keeping costs down.

The pc game market appears dead, but it really isn't. Millions play on the pc everyday. It's just that very few buy games, they crack them, and those that do buy usually download them which doesn't show up in the stats.

True Norb and I concede the point - having said that I know of at least a dozen friends who have their consoles chipped so they can play hooky games on them!!!

I myself, well I dont do PS3 and XBox I'm a purest sticking with the o'le PC, just so I can play stonking good games like TC2M and soon Gettysburg SOW!!

[norb]

I've heard that it's becoming more common to hack the consoles. If it becomes as mainstream as the pc, something is going to have to change.

[Anthropicus]

norb wrote:

I've heard that it's becoming more common to hack the consoles. If it becomes as mainstream as the pc, something is going to have to change.

We're already there. Torrents for popular 360 games are huge.

Yet, somehow the industry hasn't collapsed. Fact is, the piracy problem on PC is hugely overblown.

[norb]

Anthropicus wrote:

Yet, somehow the industry hasn't collapsed. Fact is, the piracy problem on PC is hugely overblown.

I disagree. I've seen some of the numbers and the stories. It's shut down more than one company. It is a very real threat, especially to small companies that cannot afford to lose the few sales they have. If it wasn't an issue why do companies spend millions trying to come up with a way to secure their products? Anyone can see for themselves, just look at the download count on torrent sites. Say 10% of them would turn into real sales and that is a ton of money.

[estabu2]

Earlier this month an estimated 1 million Xbox's were banned from Xbox live for hacking their systems. That means no online and no updates. Very soon consoles will be at the same rampant piracy rate that the PC is.

[Armchair General]

estabu2 wrote:

Earlier this month an estimated 1 million Xbox's were banned from Xbox live for hacking their systems. That means no online and no updates. Very soon consoles will be at the same rampant piracy rate that the PC is.

The catch being that Microsoft is cracking down hard on the people who modded their consoles. Hopefully people will get the message: mess with the system and you'll be forever blocked from everything.

[Anthropicus]

norb wrote:

Anthropicus wrote:

Yet, somehow the industry hasn't collapsed. Fact is, the piracy problem on PC is hugely overblown.

I disagree. I've seen some of the numbers and the stories. It's shut down more than one company. It is a very real threat, especially to small companies that cannot afford to lose the few sales they have. If it wasn't an issue why do companies spend millions trying to come up with a way to secure their products? Anyone can see for themselves, just look at the download count on torrent sites. Say 10% of them would turn into real sales and that is a ton of money.

All that shows to me is that developers are eager to blame piracy for their failed product. You've laid out a series of statements that may be more or less true, but don't necessarily follow each other.

1) I've heard the stories. A game is sold x amount and is pirated y amount. There's never any evidence that the second amount relates to the first.

2) Companies spend millions of dollars trying to come up with a way to secure their products. Putting the fact that these methods don't work aside, where is the evidence that they are right to be worried?

3) Look at the download count. Sure, we can generate a number that may be more or less accurate for how much a game is pirated. Yet, why does picking a number out of the blue (10%?) show anything at all?

I sympathize, I really do. It can't be easy seeing that your product is pirated and I don't think anyone here would disagree that it's a terrible practice. Software piracy has been a fact of life for this industry for a very long time, and the only thing you can do about it is resist the urge to use snake oil DRM schemes (and they're all snake oil) and give your paying customers the best value you can.

[norb]

I still disagree. Knowing the amount of time that people put into games, no one should be able to steal it. I completely support the right of anyone to protect their property. Stealing is not a fact of life.

There is evidence and there was a great article on this that I really wish that I could remember. It had actual stats from a game where it was getting easily hacked and they had the sales numbers and the torrent download count. Then they put in the drm and the numbers drastically changed. The sales shot up and the torrent downloads decreased.

I have such a bad memory for the details, what sticks with me is the lesson. There was a company that had a fighter plane game, something through history and the game got hacked before it went public. The loss of sales and the amount of the investment shut them down as I remember.

I support anyone's right to protect their product. I also support DRM methods. As a gamer I chose to make sure ours do not break certain rules, but I completely understand companies that use the more stringent ones. They invest millions of dollars and thousands of hours and all it takes is one thief to post a hack and now their blood, sweat, and tears are free for all to grab. And people do grab them.

ahh, I found one of the better researched articles:
http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html

I do not like intrusive DRM, but I do support the rights of companies to use them. I also believe it is a gamers right to know if the DRM on a game is intrusive or not before they buy.

What is intrusive?

1. Installs anything outside of the game folder where the user is installing the game.
2. Installs any services or processes that can or do run when the game is not running
3. Leaves anything on your computer after you uninstall the game.

That's my definition and that's the rules I follow for our game. But I still support the rights of companies to put what they want into games, because you never give into criminals.